Elven Bond - Interesting Read

[Blindhamsterman]

happycrow, why's it fun to Elf-Hate? Just enjoy belittling other peoples characters? (as sadly when there are quite a few elves, some of the comments in this thread while, hopefully not meant as such, could be considered as rude toward the ones that do play elves)

but on the topic of stereotypes...

it's true, but dwarves have their own steroe types, maintained across pretty much all fantasy settings too, they drink too much, but can handle it because they're tough, they mine, and have a bad habit of freeing elder evils from the deeps, which 99.99% of the time they can't deal with. They tend to speak in grunts and be bad tempered, have a scotish accent and be just as secretive and xenophobic about their business as Elves.

Gnomes have a stereo type of their own too, large noses, inventers that tend to be fond of illusions and pranks, they cause mischief on a regular basis and have a habbit of being annoying. In most settings, well known for being ahead of their time in technologies

Orcs are stereo typed as the bad guys, brutish and stupid, but exceptionally strong, as a whole they're cruel and decidedly evil. The way each setting goes about acheiving the above does vary but the end result tends to be much the same.
There's now at least been some effort to rectify that with the Kingdom of Many Arrows in forgotten realms, Obould (while he lives) hopes for a better future involving trade and the like.

Halflings... they're an iffy one, as they used to be the same across settings, but credit where its due, the last two editions of D&D made some effort to differentiate a halfling from a hobbit.

Humans, worst stereo types in fantasy. They are 'the young race' all other races think of them as such, they are growing as a race very rapidly, kingdoms rising and falling in the blink of an eye. They destroy a lot as they go but eventually will learn to preserve instead. Because they are the race destined to rule. They learn much quicker than anyone else does, the only thing going for them is, without a subrace spread the entire human race has a much larger variety of personalities than any other.

But yes, the simple truth of the matter is this, pretty much every fantasy race going got ideas from Tolkiens work, and if a race exists in one setting, chances are that it'll exist in another.

As far as making elves a not playable race... sure so long as all other non human races received the same treatment. I'd be interested to hear how you'd like to see them played Mirabai, it's always good to get new ideas on how characters should be portraid.

finally +1 for Tolkien, though I do enjoy Greenwoods books.

[Happycrow]

Insulting to characters and players???

Sir.
It's been tradition for longer than I've been alive now for people to take these stereotypes and grind them against each other for fun. I would truly hope that people here aren't taking the game that seriously, that they would take my two cents in the game as a personal insult.

Frankly, that would indicate such a ridiculous lack of maturity that I'd be ill-inclined to remain were it the case.

I agree with you regarding bad stereotypes, actually. That's why in my novels (which one day I will get an agent to agree to, and then go "hey, buy my books, I'm pretty sure they don't suck! ), there are humans, centaurs, goblins, and gnomes, and a "something else." But the gnomes are like Hitchcock's gnomes, to whom it's dangerous to sell rope. And the goblins aren't a thing like DnD goblins, either.

[Creslyn]

In order to maintain their "otherness", elves should not be a playable race.

Perhaps there should be a poll on whether elves should be made a non-player race

[I-KP]

There isn't a plot, party or crime scene report that isn't enhanced by the inclusion of Hin. They are the definitive, and literal, yardstick by which all others are measured (and often found wanting). Hin like annoying Pointies ergo Pointies may stay.

[hollyfant]

For the record: I don't hate elves. And I don't hate elf-players. I just hate elf fluff.

It's difficult to consider elves to be "real", in a way that Halflings or Dwarves can be believable regardless of being ridiculous stereotypes. All races have their strengths and weaknesses, wisdom and folly. But what exactly is the canonical weakness of the elves? They have a low constitution, but never suffer from a plague it seems. They are master artisans, but nobody explains where they get their ores, gems and other raw materials from. They wear leather, but mention of them eating meat is always hedged with remarks about many not doing so.
Elves have no farms. No mines. No sewers, no factories. Elves know no crime (except the occasional high-profile, dramatic betrayals). No diseases, scars or deformations.
No town idiots. No cowards. No commoners.

The fluff kills elves as a believable race. Yet at the same time that fluff is so complex, elaborate and just downright much that it becomes a chore to play a "real" elf.

Kudos to those who take up that challenge.

[Ithildur]

Some good points Holly, things that make you go 'Huh...' if you stop and think about it too long... along with a hundred thousand other elements of DnD rules and lore. Totally agree that elven crunch is weaksauce in 3e/3.5e, while fluff is uberiffic.

As far as the 'otherness' of elves translating to being non playable... this is DnD. People in some campaigns have the option to play stranger things than elves (things like Mind Flayers... >.>). Heck, dwarves are rather different too from regular Joe humans; they may not be quite as otherworldly as Tolkien elves or some FR elves from Evermeet, but make no mistake, they are quite distinct and a dwarf played like a regular Joe human would be laughed at by the elitists in ALFA, and if you told a real dwarf that they're really not that different from short stocky human miners with funny accents with a fondness for ale, they would pop you one.

Come to think of it, maybe stuff like paladins, druids, clerics, and sorcerers (wizards to a lessor extent) should be non playable as well. They too, are 'otherworldly' as well to different degrees.

ALFA still allows Drow PCs (and other ECL exotics), afaik. If surface elves should be non playable due to their otherliness, then Drow are definitely out. But as is, Drow, etc. are playable races pending application due to ECL, setting/immersion/integrity, potential for CvC, etc.

Again, this is DnD, need I remind you. It's ALFA, so there are standards and restrictions for the sake of raising our game experience, but this is still a fantasy game. 3 foot tall humanoids running around, 4 foot by 4 foot ones stomping around yelling in Scottish accents, etc etc.

Perhaps one can make the argument that all elves in FR are otherworldly enough (though FR canon makes it clear elves can be portrayed in a variety of ways, some of them quite 'urban' if they've lived in, say Waterdeep all their life, or traveled around with non elven adventurers for years, etc) that they merit an application to play like drow, and that they should receive perks to their abilities (along the line of their 2e versions, +1 to hit with longswords/longbows, etc) on similar (but less powerful) lines as the drow. That might make some sense. But suggesting every elf should be a non playable race because of what one perceives an archetypical 'otherworldiness' to be is beyond silly in a DnD game, and can be seen as a not so subtle slap in the face to past and present elf players who simply weren't 'otherworldly' enough in the eyes of the elites.

I've a better suggestion: why don't the elites that would like to see more elves as portrayed as otherworldly post your pro tips on how you'd do that, for everyone's great benefit? Perhaps even roll up an otherworldly elf, and show us how it's done? It'd be far more constructive than trying to pull the rug out from under people who enjoy playing a staple race in DnD.

[gribo]

A good source of inspiration for elves is Asimov's Elijah baley series (Caves of steel' the naked sun etc) The spacers are a very good approximation of elves in my opinion.

[Keryn]

Whhaattt? But.. but... whenever I try to play me elf with his own interests and with interests in his own people and shaite...

You know they do have a life, and interests and goals... they are not servants of the rising race of newbs.

Each time I try it.. me is bashed good... Peoples points the fingers at mez and say...

Damm you!!!

Guys seriously, Elves do have their interests and step in their toes and YES they will fry your ass, roast it well done and serve it in a plate. This idea elves must bow before humans and do everything just to make them happy and forge an alliance is BS...

Also saying a classic Race in DnD cannot be played I think it is a bit of a stretch. Each one is entitled to their own opinion, but I think there are certain standards and things expectable from an elf, while deviating from the norm is usually what causes a rift and opens doors for new adventures and situations.

Each time I think about... it cannot be coincidence, so many novels and stories are around the impossibles... Like the half.elf who became a Bladesinger, or the Shevarash warrior who fell in love with a drow maiden, or whatever.

Now for all this to happen there should ALSO be some standards in the side of the DM team, when one DM thinks X and other Y, it gets pretty hard to get into the flow. I hate to see an Elf played as a human with pointy ears...

((Maybe one of the reason I think scheduled regular sessions, are so great, the player get to know the DM and the Dm the player, and they sort understand what one expects from one another.))

[Happycrow]

Hey, Brier liked your character just fine until he decided to rub his linguistic superiority all over the character's face. And even then he DID save the elf's life.

I agree, however, that a well-played elf, GENERALLY SPEAKING, should care a lot more about his people than about other peoples. Because it's lore-correct, and because generally speaking, people do.

"Tragedy is when I cut my finger in the kitchen. Comedy is when YOU slip, fall down a manhole, and die."

[Audark]

wrong elf, you saved my elf there happycrow

[Mirabai]

I don't think anyone needs to get their back up, prove anything, or convince anyone of anything here. This is all just opinion, conjecture, and conversation (as far as I'm concerned anyway).

Also, +1 to Holly

[Ithildur]

Elves, beautiful, graceful, kind and also terrible, wretched, bigoted and violent. The elven experience is broad enough to encompass this dichotomy. The view of elves as aloof, beautiful peace loving creatures I would say is more of a human impression of elves from afar, than anything nearing a true description of what elves really are.

+1

And on a lighter note, Rich Burlew would seem to agree with the above:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html

[Audark]

I loved that strip, thats exactly how I want my character to be, he rarely gets the opportunity to show that side

[Veilan]

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=2

Elves are slender and beautiful as well as annoying. They live in forests where they molest small animals and play boring music all night long. They are a perfect choice for depressed and sociopathic players who feel undervalued and misunderstood. Suggested jobs: hairdresser, vixen, goth poet.

Or as a Pak'ma'ra would say: "I like elves... properly cooked."

[Ithildur]

lol, I haven't seen that in a while.

But seriously folks...

Canon elf:

http://www.dungeoncrawlinc.com/comic225.html

Non canon elf:

http://www.elfonlyinn.net/d/20020523.html