Zelknolf wrote:Paint it on the outside of the shield, njub.
Ah, but when it's on the inside who's to know it's even there?
For all their importance, D&D never clarified exactly what a Holy Symbol is. There's no spell or ritual to make them. They can be bought in wood or silver, which apparently also covers the ones that are of a material specificly not wood or silver. A wooden Holy Symbol has no discernible weight, and:
Player's Handbook, page 140 wrote:To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these materials are elaborate, such as the 2-foot-by-4-boot mirror that a wizard needs to cast scrying, preparing these materials is a free action.
So we're talking about a "weightless" object which can be prepared in no time without an extra hand free (just the regular spellcasting one). How hard could it be to fake?
Depends on who you're trying to fool. If your priest of Mask is trying to convince a farmer that you're really a sunite while casting some fancy spell, I'd say your chances are pretty good. If you try the same in the presence of a high priestess of Sune, you'll probably have some explaining to do. This was basically what was discussed before. It's not impossible to fake when casting divine spells and sometimes you'll have no trouble pulling it off, but that's not to say you'll always manage to hide your patron deity, no matter the circumstance.
Current PC: Gareth Darkriver, errant knight of Kelemvor
Se'rie Arnimane: Time is of the essence!
Nawiel Di'malie: Shush! we're celebrating!
W.C. Fields had something to say about this topic, I'm sure.
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Anyhow, if you want to be sneaky, go ahead and be sneaky.
If you want to be GOOD at being sneaky, devote character build & tangible resources accordingly. Blow ranks on "worthless" social skills like bluff. Buy a few potions of Invisibility, or something that can cast Darkness so no one will witness you buff yourself to high heaven in Cyric's name. Get feats like Still Spell or Silent Spell. Cast your spells only in private (or in front of tied up pleasure lasses in some Waterdhavian dive). Cast your spells only in front of witnesses you don't intend to have survive a minute too long. Lots of different methods here, the challenges themselves are something for RP fodder.
If you're willing to take your chances that Joe Peasant won't figure out your scam, despite your 0 bluff ranks or other lack of preparation, that's fine too, peasants may be fooled "all of the time." If you bluster and BS a 19 WIS high priestess of Sune, pretending to be an adherent when you're actually scamming in service to some other patron, don't be awfully surprised if failing to "invest" in the scam leads to disaster.
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack
Blow ranks on "worthless" social skills like bluff.
This is where we agree.
Cast your spells only in private.....
But what of the "open casting byfalse patron" approach?
This is the crux of the issue and the part that begs for some ruling. I agree that this approach is a bit less "necessary" now that other players can't meta-info a PCs class/lvl at the log-in screen but ....
Is there some mechanic or skillcheck or will save or lore check that a PC could request if watching the Sharran cast in the name of Waukeen?
Does a PC/NPC's faith in Waukeen alter that skill check?
There is no standing D&D ruleset for these issues. If ALFA wants one it will need to be crafted from whole cloth.
Back a moment to "Realmslore", canon (or Candlekeep canon?) is not the same as the D&D 3.5 ruleset, as well as campaign variants like under FRCS. Think we can probably agree "there is no rule to be found." However, a tenet of the system is that very few things are NOT subject to dicerolls now and again, and if you want to sweeten your chances for success, acquire levels, feats, skill ranks, spend your "points" and whatnot wisely, and don't complain if your build has weaknesses in certain situations.
I think though that we can probably also agree, that there is canon support across some number of novels, and from rare pronouncements on the question of naming deities, such as those Greenwood quotes, that "fraud sometimes works, sometimes doesn't." In cases, it shouldn't even be attempted, probably if contrary to stuff like Faiths & Pantheons dogma, or say, DM judgment and discretion (no, Torm should find this type of deception completely dishonourable, you have a bad feeling about falling from favor if you continue on this course...)
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Anyhow, maybe people can agree on the two key points above (in red), maybe not.
If we want to have a rules discussion, could re-ignite the House Rules discussion from either the Standards forum, start anew elsewhere, whatever. Maybe it's important to some upcoming character concepts, who knows? Still, having a con artist from level 1 onwards, of any character class, is doomed to failure unless you VERY wisely pick targets who your teeny tiny skillpoint investments might work on. Rogue with 0 bluff, 0 forgery, willing to sell you a deed to the Moonbridge is going to do worse than a Rogue with 15 bluff, 15 forgery. First he should sell treasure maps or something else that suckers will spend small sums on, then work his way up. Same may go for priests disguising themselves, may even wait awhile and figure out what faiths are underrepresented in the region where they adventure, and choose one of those as the fake one. Sitting on the frozen tundras of the North, well, perfect place to imitate an adherent of the Mulhorandi pantheon. Ah, Mulhorand, how I miss your uh, burning sands and abundant... hmm... hieroglyphics? *smile smile bluff* Again though, great until a Thayan interviews you about your beliefs in the tongue of your purported motherland, and you're caught flatfooted and cremated for it.
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack
I see this controversy as very similar to the "disguise" debate.
Drow PC Xxxx created on server A disguises himself as a surface elf. The HDM and DM team on server A nurture that PC Xxxx. PC Xxxx has a travelling group that accepts him as surface elf. They adventure together, gaining levels, lewt, having a plotline....all the things that happen in campaign.
Then, a few months later the adventuring and PC Xxxx decide it's time to head to Server B for some new fun.
DM Y on server B, in the first session sends a tell to PC Xxxx "make a bluff check" . PC Xxxx fails some arbitrary check (say DC20) and DM Y states that PC Xxxx has been noted as a drow by the PCs he is travelling as well as the village guard at Metaville.
That is what I do not want to see happen with a PC and the "divine invocation" thing.
That's probably why there is really no disguise implemenetation in ALFA and why, IMO there shouldn't be divine invocation rule either.
Too complex to check and to make a fair balance.
So here are my recommendations for potential guidelines..... "If a PC makes a good faith effort through skill allocation and RP to be sneaky then that's good enough."
Or, equally acceptable, " PCs should expect that the deity granting them spells will be known by some people around them if they choose to cast openly".
I favor the former, you most likely favor the latter. Acceptable difference of opinion.
I would say, from my perspective, that if you've made a character who pretends to be someone who was raised in a different setting by a different culture with different values and a strikingly different religion, speaking a different language with a different accent (though, granted, with common roots -- in the context, mind you, that English and German both trace their roots to proto-Germanic, and that people who don't speak either can tell the difference between them.) who can't consistently make a DC 20 bluff check, you're grating a big block of stinky cheese (or that character deserves to get caught).
To the actual topic: what's wrong with making it a spellcraft check for the spoken name and a knowledge (religion) check for the symbol? If you have to say the deity's name, those who can decipher the spell would pick it out (and it's a PITA to pick the names out of discourse in a language you don't speak, for those uninvested) and those who can't wouldn't. There are certainly clever ways to get the holy symbol out of the way (still spell) or to not have to speak it (silent spell). All we'd have to do is add a clause that says that a successful identification of a spell made without ranks in spellcraft (not possible in PnP, but possible in the Aurora engine) doesn't count, and we've got a fairly reasonable rule: don't cast in front of casters, (or if you do, use metamagic do disguise it) because they'll know what you're doing. Don't show your symbol to scholars because they'll know what it is.
Roleplaying what's essencially a con artist with no chance of failure whatsoever is cheesy. Short of appearance altering spells it's not credible that a drow can pretend to be a surface elf for years and years and not raise any suspicion ever.
Same reasoning can be applied for priests trying to conceal a patron deity. You may be able to foll Joe teh plumber every day of the week. But eventually you're going to meet someone that might see through your deception and then you really have to be good at BSing or you're gonna get slapped. I don't see how anyone can expect different really. Actually spending points and RPing properly go a long way, but that doesn't take the observer into account. If you just look at the sneaky caster's skills and RP, he has about the same chance of fooling a farmer than a high priest.
As for spirit shamans, I don't think the same need for holy symbols apply.
Current PC: Gareth Darkriver, errant knight of Kelemvor
Se'rie Arnimane: Time is of the essence!
Nawiel Di'malie: Shush! we're celebrating!
