Combat Expertise

Scripted ALFA systems & related tech discussions (ACR)

Moderators: ALFA Administrators, Staff - Technical

User avatar
oldgrayrogue
Retired
Posts: 3284
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:09 am
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by oldgrayrogue »

Well I guess reasonable minds can differ on how something like this should be addressed. I don't think that you should just single out CE for a fix and ignore shields which seems even less IC or realistic. And where does it end? Right now the engine allows you to equip a melee weapon, equip a shield, unequip, equip a bow, rinse repeat etc all in rapid succession. Are we going to hard code it so players can't do that either? How about the mobs, they do it too! As I said, to me the best way to handle all of this is just trust players to play right and address those players who don't. If this is hard coded, without the option for a full rebuild, its unfair IMO. In PnP turn based combat is so different from a real time PW I don't think you can really compare the two. Coding things to prevent exploits is fine, but not if it ends up nerfing feats that have real prerequisites that affect a character build and what I believe are legitimate combat tactics.
User avatar
Brokenbone
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 5771
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 1:07 am
Location: London, Ontario, Canada

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by Brokenbone »

I sort of agree on the where does it end thing. Cycling weapons as you realize different critter resistances is a given, instantly, via hotbar. If you saw a mixed gang of skeletons and zombies, you might well find yourself be doing... hammer, hammer, hammer, axe, axe, back to hammer, hammer... see a chump, drop your shield so you 2H your hammer, etc., put shield back up as you realize you need that AC due to undead flanking you...

Doing something for the purpose of exploiting, ie., an intention, is I think what's to be concerned about.

Warn, and from time to time, interview if something seems fishy?
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack

DMA Staff
Dorn
Haste Bear
Posts: 2196
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: Australia (West - GMT+8)

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by Dorn »

It's clearly taking the piss and resulting in an over response imo.

I vote leave the feat it as it is, and recognise occasional switches are tactics, talk to the person(s) cycling every round (bhm and others know who they are it seems), if they do it again remove 1.5 levels from their pc.

Rinse and repeat

Then apply scripting resources to more important things.
playing Nathaniel Ward - Paladin of the Morninglord and devout of Torm (cookie cutter and proud of it)
t-ice
Dungeon Master
Posts: 2106
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by t-ice »

As I said, to me the best way to handle all of this is just trust players to play right and address those players who don't.
As this discussion has clearly shown, reasonable minds quite widely differ in opinion what is "right". It is a matter of opinion what is abuse, what is tactics. And behavior that is condemned in others will in the opinion of one be excuse as tactics when done by oneself.

While wagging fingers at CE abusers will likely remove any most glaring abuse of clicking CE in attack rhytm (at least when not playing solo), the real balance of feat choices only comes to play seldom: When the PC has brush with death. So while burning out DMs by demanding them to police players clicking their modes will reduce the speed with which of the CE guy mows down goblins, it does nothing for when the PCs powers (and luck) really come to a split-second test.

Like that ambushing ogre example. For if that PC had power attacked the orc just before the ogre ambushed him, not after, and the ogre is now about to pummel the PC senseless ... Do you really think the player would go "Ah, well, I can't turn CE on for another 5 seconds or so, so gotta let that ogre kill my PC." I know I wouldn't. Perhaps you really would, but I'd claim 90% of people who say they'd let their PC be killed rather than click the abuse would be shown to be lying if put in front that split-second decision. And it's really only these seldom brushes with death where it counts. Easy encounters the PC will win anyway, the fact that they win faster abuse-clicking CE, or casting in CE, is irrelevant.

That's why the only good answer to any "player conduct" issue is to make the engine force the players to play by the conducts, and everything the engine allows is fair game tactics. Conducts are there for when the game mechanics can't be made to do better. BHM here said he _can_ make it better.
User avatar
oldgrayrogue
Retired
Posts: 3284
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:09 am
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by oldgrayrogue »

I agree that the life or death situations can push even the most honest player to exploit. By the same token, we should not make coded changes to game mechanics that place player's toons at a higher risk of death, as in my ogre around the corner example. As far as the lowbie mob farmer who benefits from exploits, to me this is a perfect example of why coding to solve these problems, as opposed to enforcing personal accountability, is the wrong way to go. Should we wipe all mobs from the repeat farmer's favorite haunts? Drop the XP and loot on those mobs? Up the CR of the mobs to deter farming before it happens? All of these broad stroke type solutions to problems with a very few players just serve to detract from the experience for the majority of players who are not exploiting the system.

As to shades of gray and different interpretations, yeah, that can be a PITA, but DMs control the game and what they say goes. Short of a DM pressing the kill button, players should understand that they have to accept DM rulings on gameplay. Trust goes both ways, and I am confident that none of our DMs will make arbitrary or unfair rulings or railroad players. Players who grief DMs aren't playing by the rules either.
User avatar
Blindhamsterman
Haste Bear
Posts: 2396
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:13 am
Location: GMT

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by Blindhamsterman »

for what its worth, I nearly died to the crypt gast on TSM because I switched off CE so that I could try and cast a spell, it hit me, i was in pain, i got poisoned etc etc... painful, but it's how the system SHOULD work. No reason not to follow those rules regardless of risk.

Also, for what it's worth, I'd argue against non warlocks or non casters getting a rebuild. Warrior types retain the full benefit of the feat (bonus AC while in close combat) And not being able to use an exploit anymore isn't reason enough for a rebuild. Also, as a DM on two servers, if I see a player doing either thing I'll not hold my tongue in the future, names will be passed on.
Standards Member


Current PC: Elenaril Avae'Kerym of the Lynx Lodge
<Heero>: yeah for every pc ronan has killed dming, paazin has killed 2 with his spawns
Ronan
Dungeon Master
Posts: 4611
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:48 am

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by Ronan »

DMs can change feats with console commands. I wouldn't mind doing this for PCs provided they don't pick a weird replacement feat where the prereqs are hard to figure out.
User avatar
oldgrayrogue
Retired
Posts: 3284
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:09 am
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by oldgrayrogue »

Blindhamsterman wrote: And not being able to use an exploit anymore isn't reason enough for a rebuild.

That's not the basis for my call for rebuilds BHM. IMO the hard coded fix proposed limits legitimate combat tactics that utilize the feat as in my example. I can think of many other examples where a cool down timer for feat selection will limit legit combat tactics. Some players may choose to just go a different direction rather than deal with that. If its not a coded fix, then there is no need for rebuilds.
User avatar
Blindhamsterman
Haste Bear
Posts: 2396
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:13 am
Location: GMT

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by Blindhamsterman »

<edited out - I shant argue, really no point>
Last edited by Blindhamsterman on Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Standards Member


Current PC: Elenaril Avae'Kerym of the Lynx Lodge
<Heero>: yeah for every pc ronan has killed dming, paazin has killed 2 with his spawns
User avatar
Brokenbone
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 5771
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 1:07 am
Location: London, Ontario, Canada

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by Brokenbone »

Is it exploitative to walk down the road with a sword in your hand in CE mode, with zero intent of casting spells, drinking potions, or anything else?

Does the answer differ if you think there's maybe some stealthy bandits watching you and about to plink you with arrows (that your +3 to AC might save you from)?

Does the answer differ if you expect it'll just be a boring walk of 2 screens through, say, a city of no-hostiles?

Is the idea, "only have it on when toe-to-toe in melee", even if you're just trying to say, close to melee range with a pesky archer? Run at a guy firing arrows down your throat (or magic missiles or whatever), BEGGING to be in melee, and with CE mode on in anticipation of deke-outs and dodges to get your butt to the appropriate position?

I think there's a lot of chance for the good old "reasonable people disagreeing" business, big differences in turn based play vs. "running around in real time with constantly moving hostiles engaging in different attack modes themselves."

I do like the "taking aside and quizzing" approach, but terms like "caught" and "punished" are a far cry from say, "coaching", "refereeing", putting on some level of notice, etc.
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack

DMA Staff
User avatar
Ithildur
Dungeon Master
Posts: 3548
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Best pizza town in the universe
Contact:

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by Ithildur »

Well I'm glad I found this (I think). :) I often walk around in dangerous areas with weapon out and combat expertise on, as it's perfectly doable within the game engine's design, and it's nice to have that bit of cushion especially given how the game engine is prone to leave characters flatfooted who shouldn't be. I also use expertise for certain rounds vs dangerous foes, and turn it off vs the +1 ab guys, switch to PA, etc. all in the same encounter like OGR described. From time to time I might switch within a 6 second window to anticipate the next round (certainly not to change up between attacks within the same round, since I've not had a character with reiterative attacks/BAB+6 since 2004! and this exploit where you can lose the penalties?? I wish I'd known that so I could unknowingly exploit it!). Heck, I remember there was a time when I didn't know you couldn't 'switch' within a normal round in PnP, and certainly didn't know there were restrictions against doing such in NWN2.

Yes, it's not how CE works in pnp; but it's how it works in NWN2. If that's seen as a problem in ALFA, let's make sure a decision is reached and people are notified that it is a problem while we throw around various theories on how CE should work (there's an awful lot of confusion apparently reading through the various posts) and how 'exploits' should be dealt with.

CE is one of the handful of feats I've become intimately familiar with as I tend to gravitate towards Intelligent Melee types in both pnp and NWN. I would love to see it work as it's supposed to in a game engine that works much better than NWN2, but given how NWN2 mucks up things like Uncanny Dodge, flatfootedness, Spring Attack, being able to freely switch weapons/shields, having to choose between 'modes' for power attack/expertise/defensive casting, etc, I'm not overly concerned about a flat 'mode' +3 to AC/-3 AB for melees (clearly a compromise decision made by OE vs the full +1/-1 to +5/-5 of PnP and +5/-5 of NWN1). I agree getting that bonus while casting is a pretty big freebie for clerics and gishes and arguably an 'exploit', but then again, so is being able to run away in full plate as fast as the guy in leather WHILE getting that +3 to ac, or being able to cast somatic component spells with weapon and shield in hand, WHILE getting that +3 to ac, etc etc.

At least let people know clearly in the meantime what/why certain things are allowed by NWN2 are not allowed, like we do with domains, druids wearing metal, etc, before bringing up threats of punishment or docking lvls. And don't assume people who are switching tactically during melee are exploiting; they may not know the pnp rule that expertise cannot be 'switched off' during the round, because NWN2 plainly allows it. They may also not always be able to keep fully accurate count of when the combat round ends (a timer would help with that).

So let's go ahead and fix this, and while we're at it, it's clearly wrong that you need to spend feats to disarm people or trip them, according to pnp so we should work on that, along with, of course, the well known exploits (according to pnp) people who run with heavy armor enjoy. And max HPs/HP escalation, yeah, what's that about? That's not right either. I'm looking forward to all these getting fixed as well one by one; hoorah! :D

p.s. I won't even go into how unrecognizable the Blardesinger has become for Blindhamster's sake... :D
Last edited by Ithildur on Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Formerly: Aglaril Shaelara, Faerun's unlikeliest Bladesinger
Current main: Ky - something

It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
User avatar
Blindhamsterman
Haste Bear
Posts: 2396
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:13 am
Location: GMT

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by Blindhamsterman »

p.s. I won't even go into how unrecognizable the Blardesinger has become for Blindhamster's sake... :D
You'd Be suprised. I'll PM you to clarify! :P


I believe the fix for the feat is as follows (one of the tech team might confirm/deny):
  • CE can still be switched on and off on the fly as is now
    CE will turn off if spells are cast
    CE is scalable between 1 and 5 based on your BAB
    There will be a 'fight defensively' option for those without CE
Standards Member


Current PC: Elenaril Avae'Kerym of the Lynx Lodge
<Heero>: yeah for every pc ronan has killed dming, paazin has killed 2 with his spawns
User avatar
Ithildur
Dungeon Master
Posts: 3548
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Best pizza town in the universe
Contact:

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by Ithildur »

Blindhamsterman wrote:
p.s. I won't even go into how unrecognizable the Blardesinger has become for Blindhamster's sake... :D
You'd Be suprised. I'll PM you to clarify! :P


I believe the fix for the feat is as follows (one of the tech team might confirm/deny):
  • CE can still be switched on and off on the fly as is now
    CE will turn off if spells are cast
    CE is scalable between 1 and 5 based on your BAB
    There will be a 'fight defensively' option for those without CE

Shouldn't the six second timer be added so that you can't switch 'off/on' CE between attacks in the same round?

At least fighting defensively will help a bit against lvl 1s becoming even more fragile... +2ac/-4ab is obviously not nearly as nice as +3/-3, but at least it won't cost a feat.
Formerly: Aglaril Shaelara, Faerun's unlikeliest Bladesinger
Current main: Ky - something

It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
User avatar
Blindhamsterman
Haste Bear
Posts: 2396
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:13 am
Location: GMT

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by Blindhamsterman »

Think with all the negative feedback it got, it was dropped, I could be wrong though (I didnt make the fix)
Standards Member


Current PC: Elenaril Avae'Kerym of the Lynx Lodge
<Heero>: yeah for every pc ronan has killed dming, paazin has killed 2 with his spawns
Zelknolf
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:04 pm

Re: Combat Expertise

Post by Zelknolf »

The fix is untested and still not connected to any functional feats in game, as written by Ronan. We've yet to work out some issues with the interface and the toggling of the twelve possible states of combat expertise (0-10 w/ feats, defensive fighting)-- that'd normally be my domain, but I have a backlog to work through, and we can be pretty confident that CE / ICE won't be in the next update anyway.

We're giving cooldown timers a miss because of a specific client bug that currently afflicts our subdual and knockdown implementations. We grudgingly accept those, because they're not terribly likely to get you killed if they stick (they might, granted, and we're not happy about that, but we also don't have a solid alternative right now), while a stuck combat mode is easily a death sentence (or, at the very least, will require that the person run from fights that wouldn't normally need to be run from).

The negative feedback that actually held ground was that simply adding mode-toggling logic to the spellhooking was a serious blow to the effectiveness of the feat without giving it its full pen-and-paper power and versatility-- so it wasn't really "dropped." Just more complexity and development time (but with an end result that, hopefully, will meet with the fewest complaints and the most satisfaction).
Locked