A Land Far Away

It seems that there is a problem with unarmed strike vs. skeletons. While battling some skeletons unarmed near Fourthpeak, I noticed that they were gaining the benefit of damage reduction despite my PC using what should be a bludgeoning weapon (her hands.)

Skeletons are supposed to DR of 5/bludgeoning. Looking into the ALFA custom mobs in the toolset, it appears that all of the skeleton blueprints have this. I take this to mean one of two things: Either unarmed strike is not dealing bludgeoning damage as it should or DR/bludgeoning is broken, allowing skeletons to resist damage they should not be. I have had PCs use bludgeoning weapons in the past that functioned normally vs. skeletons, so I am inclined to think that the former is happening.

Can someone look into this? Thanks!

I can confirm that normal bludgeoning weapons bypass skeletons DR normally, so it must be an issue with unarmed strike not being recognized as a bludgeoning weapon.

Subdual them instead, and drag 'em unconscious to town for "proper burial". More effective, and more hilarity, for thrice the fun!

Subdual appears to be borked to. Myself and a few other players discovered that weapon finesse apparently does not apply to unarmed damge as it should OR is canceled in subdual mode for some reason.

I pointed out weapon finesse not working with unarmed attacks around a year ago, believe it was stated that it's intentional :S

Blindhamsterman wrote:I pointed out weapon finesse not working with unarmed attacks around a year ago, believe it was stated that it's intentional :S

I would be interested in reading the discussion that took place. Is in in the forum somewhere?

http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... se#p525200

It was mostly in relation to insightful strike, but the general gist was unless you're a monk technically weapon finesse shouldnt work with subduel mode.

oldgrayrogue wrote:Subdual appears to be borked to. Myself and a few other players discovered that weapon finesse apparently does not apply to unarmed damge as it should OR is canceled in subdual mode for some reason.

Weapon Finesse only grants the bonus to attack rolls, not damage rolls according to the d20 srd.

Blindhamsterman wrote:I pointed out weapon finesse not working with unarmed attacks around a year ago, believe it was stated that it's intentional :S

That is based on an incorrect understanding of the PnP rules, then. Weapon finesse works with unarmed attacks whether or not the character is a monk, whether or not the character has unarmed strike, whether or not they are striking for subdual damage, etc.

From the SRD:

Unarmed Strike

A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike.

Note that it says it is "always considered a light weapon" and does not qualify it in any way, and that there is nothing in the section on non-lethal damage to indicate that there is an exception to this when one strikes for subdual.

The argument in the thread you linked to that "fists aren't weapons" is entirely incorrect.

As an aside on this tangent of Weapon Finesse, melee touch attacks should also qualify afaik.

NESchampion wrote:As an aside on this tangent of Weapon Finesse, melee touch attacks should also qualify afaik.

Yes, that's correct. Pg. 73 of Complete Arcane is explicit on that point.

NESchampion wrote:

oldgrayrogue wrote:Subdual appears to be borked to. Myself and a few other players discovered that weapon finesse apparently does not apply to unarmed damge as it should OR is canceled in subdual mode for some reason.

Weapon Finesse only grants the bonus to attack rolls, not damage rolls according to the d20 srd.

Yes I know, I typed Unarmed Damage instead of Unarmed Strike. Either way it appears it is borked. Not sure if its only broken in subdual or broken in general.

Subdual uses a hidden "creature weapon" to apply the damage, which is a Medium-classed Bludgeoning weapon. The PC is temporarily granted the proficiency to "equip" it in order to apply nonlethal damage. It is possible that we could create a new baseitemtype that is "Small" to use instead, in which case Weapon Finesse should apply (in which case we might be able to cleverly tie it into "weapon focus: unarmed attack" as well). Still wouldn't give monks their extra damage for subdual, though.

Has anyone ever tried unarmed subdual with a gnome or a hin wearing a shield, or with off hand occupied? If it's really treating the "NLD Fist" creature weapon as medium size class, it might be forcing gnomes and hin to wield their fists "two handed"...

For what I've tried with building creatures on the toolset, all creature weapons are considered medium probably, or at least the weapon finesse is not useable with them. Unlike SRD rules, where weapon finesse should apply to all creature weapons. I've worked around this by creating empty model weapons (say, dagger for piercing), and giving the creature blueprints weapon proficiencies.

Perhaps the best solution would be to change all creatures weapon types to be small in the haks, if possible?

While I appreciate any efforts to fix weapon finesse for unarmed strike, that was not the initial question in this thread.

Is the issue with monk's unarmed strike vs. DR/bludgeoning fixable?