Scripted RP XP via ACR?

[AcadiusLost]

XP is awarded by:

1. Combat XP (usually automated)
2. Scripted XP (usually from a static quest)
3. RP XP (0-8 xp IG/hour, by script or DM calculation)
4. Quest XP (20xp/CR)
5. Bonus XP (usually 10-20 XP)

(emphasis added)

Thoughts on how we want to implement this? For NWN1, it was a simple time accumulator that was optionally installed on a few servers- Sanderman wrote the code, I went back and fixed some bugs in it later. Important points:

1. Measured login time with no real way to track "activity level"- movement, emotes, lines spoken, etc- we never found a good way to monitor this without burning extra CPU cycles. TPI's scripts supposedly had some methodology for this, but they were deemed too difficult to extract from the module, I never got the chance to look at them. So, players who log in and leave their PC standing/sitting/lying around tend to benefit from this, whether inadvertantly or intentionally. On one hand, we want to encourage players logging in even if it's just to wait for others, the "no one wants to log in if no one is on" problem is well documented. On the other hand, we don't really want to blur the lines between logging in alone to help the server, and logging in just to collect some extra XP.

2. Gain rate: The NWN1 system had a "throttle" that could be adjusted by any DM on the server - this was intended primarily as a rating of RP quality and therefore RP XP gain rate. In practice, it was used (at least I recommended it's use) as a composite control- flat-out excellent roleplayers, who emoted their way though everything, regardless of whether there was a DM or or not, might still get set to "6xp/hr" rather than "8xp/hr", if they tended to be onserver for long stretches, many days a week. Similarly a PC with acceptable RP who could only play in short blocks here and there might get pushed from a 4 up to a 6. Those who seemed likely to be logging on just for the scripted XP were pushed down to 2 or even 0 xp/hr. Also note that this gain rate (as well as the XP bank) were set and stored on a per-server basis, so in most cases the server team could discuss and form consensus on the settings for each of the regular players.

3. Banking Method: The NWN1 system would bank the amount XP earned when a PC logged out, adding it to any preexisiting totals banked for the same. Before this calculation was done, any other XP gained during that time is/was subtracted from the new gain- meaning a PC who was on for 35 RP XP worth of time, but spent some of that time getting 20 xp from a patrol static quest, would only bank 15 RP XP. Someone logging out after a 150 xp DM quest award, which lasted long enough to justify 54 XP from the scripts, would not have anything added to their banked XP for that session, as the scripts realize they've already been rewarded for that session. That said, players who log out and back in again (or just crash and come back) right before the DM XP award would still get the RP XP credit banked, and the DM Quest reward, since the scripts wouldn't know they had been DMed for the interim.

4. Awarding Method: The final control on the scripted RP XP awards was that they needed DM action in-game to award them- when using the RP XP widget on a DM, the DM channel receives a report on how much "banked" XP the PC has, and their current gain rate. This amount could then be awarded via a conversation option, or flushed entirely if it seemed suspicious. The player receives no information about their RP XP accumulation, just the XP increase when/if the DM activates it. This led to some infrequent dilemmas on the part of DMs, logging in to see a PC with a large amount of banked XP (say, 380xp) with the DM unaware of how that time had been spent. Did the player fall asleep at the keyboard once last week, and hasn't played since? Or wait OOC for hours for their IC travelling partner to show back up after a crash? Could also be they've been RPing their heart out but you've just not matched their times well. In some cases, the amount was awarded in full, sometimes with a congratulatory "tell" (which might nudge for some elaboration on recent activity) and a quiet slide down a notch on the gain rate if appropriate- in other cases, the total would be blanked out, and some (lesser) intermediate value awarded from the DM radial menu in it's place- still encourages play, but may shortchange the player.


Do we want to follow the same model for NWN2-ALFA? Seems to me it had many drawbacks alongside the many advantages of the system.

Pros:
-Rewarded players for playing IC, with or without a DM on.
-Rewarded players for logging in even alone (someone has to start)
-Put control in the hands of DMs, for rate and at the point of reward.
-Allowed DMs to have an ingame idea of who was logging in often
-Kept all banked XP and RP settings internal to a server team (each team makes it's own decisions on how to set the rate)

Cons:
-Required DM action to benefit from a system designed to help people who don't mesh times well with DMs.
-Required "stratification" of PCs by RP level, which could be contentious.
-Did not offer a distinction between time spent AFK and time spent RPing
-slightly exploitable if one logged before every XP reward (v.minor issue)
-Travelling PCs leave their banked XP with the servers they pass through, may never have it awarded if they move on before a DM gets the chance
-Required a fairly high level of knowledge by the DM team on how to use the system.
-Could be viewed as a substitute for DMs actually sticking around to watch and listen to RP.


Thoughts on this? We've got central logging, global ALFAwide persistency, and an efficient ACR to aid us, how might we do it better for NWN2?

[Rusty]

I'm interested to hear what is feasible/realistic for activity monitoring.

[Inaubryn]

I never did like this system and never did use it. I think your cons far outwiegh any good this system may present. I usually just had players send me logs of their sessions when I wasn't on. I realize not all DMs have the time, or inclination to do this. But, you can have your players edit the logs by eliminating unnecessary bits of info, tells, and such. Check and make sure time codes are consistent, and award based on overall time if you don't have time or don't want to read through the whole thing.

It's just a way for players to prove they were on the server for a given amount of time and did indeed RP. Look for big jumps in time code where a PC may have just sat around and done nothing, or was waiting or what not. You can ask the player about this jump to see what was goin' on at that time.

Again, I find this the easiest way to do things when I'm not around. Others may not find it so easy. I"m just not a big fan of the automated xp system as it stands.

[AcadiusLost]

We'd like something that works for everyone, not just the players who:

1) keep their logs (also remember we can't even do this yet in NWN2)

2) have time to edit their logs for DMs

3) are willing to consistently send their logs

Even if the DM actively encourages it, and has all the time in the world to read and judge the logs (assuming we can make the client even store logs), it's still going to be the "I deserve XP for everything I do, so gimme plz" crowd who is going to make use of this heavily, and the "I'd rather not bother the DM with the log of my patrol of the western woods" crowd who will lose out. If done properly, a scripted system is a real boon for the "well behaved" player who isn't badgering their DM for attention and/or XP, because it levels that playing field.

We want to encourage more time spent IC and in-game: expecting the players to spend a chunk of time out game editing and emailing logs (and DMs to spend out of game time reading, discussing, and weighing them) doesn't seem to serve this purpose terribly well. I can see cases in which it would be preferable- but I think in most cases an improved scripted system would end up a fairer implementation of the awards, with log emailing (if it becomes an option) as a way for players to offer insight into their PC's interactions and motivations, rather than a request for reimbursement.

Does anyone have experience with the NWNx chat plugin? I hear it's been ported to NWNx4, it may offer some options in terms of activity monitoring.

[ç i p h é r]

No experience with it, but if it's like the NWNx2 speech plugin that was based on the Talus Listener, it'll minimally allow us to record chat logs for DMs to peruse (for verification) and perhaps more (something semi or fully automated). DMFI may already have this - or some equivalent - built into it for the language system they've bundled in.

[AcadiusLost]

I'll look into the DMFI package and the new PC Tools version later this week, and see what they have to offer, regardless. May also see what the chat plugin is capable of.

[indio]

From what I understand of the NWNx4 chat plugin we can monitor anything a PC says, even specifying what channel to listen for, and have a script fire in response. Maybe that script can be tied to an automated xp/duration system.

We need this automated or it's not going to work.

[Thangorn]

Damned if you do, damned if you dont IMO.

I favour the scripted system as long as its a bonus and not a right for players. The system we had on NC subtracted DM given xp and monster given xp from the rp total. I cant remember when I ever saw a single case of exploitation on NC with them either.

It is extremely boring to farm rp xp scripts, people and we can easily catch people out through the NWNx4 thingo indio describes. I reckon its an excellent thing to kick off our servers with and it incentivises just the sort of things we want, character building and roleplaying.

[Rusty]

We are definitely including some form of Automated RP XP; the chief question, for me, is implementation. If x4chat gives us a simple, non CPU killing, way to monitor activity, then that seems to deal with the fundamental objection.

[AcadiusLost]

Just bumping this- with the DMFI/Heeds/Hak updates, haven't had time to test the chat plugin yet. Seems to me, though, the other questions about how to actually award the XP still remain, and haven't been discussed much.

More thoughts on those?

Central vs. Serverside XP banks?

DM granted versus automated granting on login?

automated throttle for player online time, DM control, or both?

[Rick7475]

Well, the chat monitoring is not really going to tell the people sitting in a bar doing no RP and the ones that are really RP'ing.


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ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggsldglslllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj
Can get me as much exp as real RP'ing.

I say scrap the chat monitors because people can fake that unless you want to inspect every chat log and I don't. And, I fear that with the possibility of lag as yet untested with everything else, monitoring chatting and any other form of action would not be worth the return: plus PC's will find a way around it.

Most PC's that log in and siut patiently in a bar would rather be RP'ing anyway. Since they log and hold a spot for the PC's that check gamespy for numbers, I say they should be rewarded for their patience and strying to get PC's on in the first place, even if they aren't really RP'ing the intent is there. So they should get exp per hour anyway.

As for the PC's who try and cheat the system and gleefully rub their hands hiding their PC somewhere away from other PC's so that they can earn exp just sitting their instead of RP'ing and interacting: why? Why on earth would anyone want to do that instead of getting with a bunch of other PC's and playing and hoping to attract the attention of a DM to earn more Exp or go hunting on quests with a group? If there is a Player who would prefer to do that instead of playing with other PC's and having fun, why on earth are they in ALFA? I mean, sa6y they sit on their ass for 10 hours and do nothing, wow, what? 80 exp? Or 100 exp? Max? We are worrying about writing more and more monitoring scripts to ensure PC's don't steal 80 exp over 10 hours of sitting on their arse? And realisitcally, that sort of behaviour would get noticed by a DM, and the log would already reflect it: PC BillyBob sat in Bright Blades Inn for 10 hours would show up in the logs. DM's popping on would notice him hiding or sitting somewhere.

So, let's just implement the exp per hour without all the hassles of writing monitoring scripts for chats and other means thereby using up our valuable scripting resources. Let's reward those stalwart PC's (like Mizbiz who for a while would be the only one logging into DD for hours hoping other players would stop by and keeping the server alive when there were virtually no DM's) who wait for players to show up patiently keeping the numbers on Gamespy attrative with Exp that they have definitely earned and forget about the abusers who are most likely an insignificant number to worry about.

[AcadiusLost]

Thoughts and contributions appreciated, though I'd appreciate it if you or a moderator could insert some line breaks into that example, makes the thread really hard to read by stretching out the format. [edit: beat me to it, much appreciated!]

My instinct is to say, a PC who has macro'ed gibberish or is repeatedly firing off an emote to dodge the system should be pretty obvious to passing DMs, and likely deserves a talking-to. I agree that it's not worth adding a pile of lag to the server over, but currently the ACR is really quite efficient- if coded well, a basic check for activity likely wouldn't add anything significant to the serverside lag. Alternatively, there is also the AFK timeout idea that was suggested elsewhere- so long as this is kept generous (one hour RL time?) it shouldn't interfere with most players' ingame experience.

In terms of award rate, the 0-8 xp/hour is in game hours, which at a 7 min / game hour rate (ALFA's NWN1 standard), means 0-68 xp per real-life hour, so the aforementioned hypothetical 10-hour case could be as much as 680 xp, which is an amount I've very rarely seen in game over 3 years of NWN1 ALFA live play, even for 6+ hour sessions with fairly high risk. Granted, this would be if the PC was earning at the maximum rate, but I haven't seen much in the way of opinions on this.

The "RP Quantity" negative factor to balance to some extent between PCs who are on often, for long stretches, as compared to those who have less time to be in-game, can probably be handled by scripts (start diminishing banked RP XP rewards after a certain number of ingame hours per week, for example).

The "RP Quality" factor is far more subjective- I think DMs would certainly need to be involved on a per-PC basis for that. The downside is concerns of favourtism- those PCs who DMs think very highly of will tend to be set high for RP reward, but also naturally be the focus of a disproportionate amount of DM attention (and likely rewards, XP and otherwise). So, having DMs attach a bonus to scripted RP XP awards may exacerbate leveling rate discrepencies. The flip side of this is lowering gain rates for players who tend not to RP unless actively engaged by a DM, which is an option with a "Quality" throttle that would be missing if we moved to a more standardized system.

What are thoughts on taking a more moderate gain rate (with a diminishing return for the habitually logged on folks), and removing the DM "RP Quality" throttle? A slow baseline XP accumulation rate would still serve our purposes (encouraging players to be logged on) without snowballing the advancement of the always-online crowd too much.

If that seems like a reasonable approach, we can toss around some numbers and try to get it going for testing. It'd lower the bar for DM understanding on the mechanics behind the sytem, and remove some of the enforcement burden on the DMs, at least.

[indio]

What are thoughts on taking a more moderate gain rate (with a diminishing return for the habitually logged on folks), and removing the DM "RP Quality" throttle? A slow baseline XP accumulation rate would still serve our purposes (encouraging players to be logged on) without snowballing the advancement of the always-online crowd too much.

If that seems like a reasonable approach, we can toss around some numbers and try to get it going for testing. It'd lower the bar for DM understanding on the mechanics behind the sytem, and remove some of the enforcement burden on the DMs, at least.

Sounds good.

I always liked this idea of Red Golem's, although it doesn't solve all our problems.

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Sc ... il&id=1688

[dergon darkhelm]

I was reading through the "afk booting" script.

As a player who tends to take long afks ( I play from work a lot and just walk away for sometimes an hour or more), I would say that I certainly don't deserve any exp, but would be frustrated by an "auto-boot".

Can it be made to just deactivate the exp when afk?

____

In general, I would very much like to see some hard-coded RP exp. Seeing dramatically different levelling rates based mostly upon who has the DM's attention for whatever reason, has been a problem cited numerous times to me privately by many members.

so:

automated throttle for player online time, DM control, or both?

I say an automated throttle. DMs have a myriad of ways to get exp to PCs they think deserve it. No reason to add another layer of subjectivity here.

DM granted versus automated granting on login?

Auto to a point. Make a cap that stops the auto awards.

I've noted one PW that caps all weekly exp awards at 1000. This includes all non-DM RP and quest awards. So combat, repeatable statics, scripted RP all caps out a 1000/wk regardless of source.

[AcadiusLost]

The argument that's traditionally been made against a hard cap (say, 1000xp/RL week) is that it may be treated as a "target" rather than an unlikely-case high ceiling. Also, that it impedes binge players who do major gaming on things like spring break, etc, though that's comparatively minor I believe.

Generally, I think the preference was for a "soft cap" which starts diminishing XP returns when you get above a certain amount per week- though that's more challenging to accomplish script-wise.

Sounds like we're generally in agreement about the other aspects of the system, though. Even if it's not much, getting a little scripted XP each time one logs on for a long, un-DMed stretch goes a long way towards assuaging the emnity towards the "haves" from the "have-nots".

Interested to hear from others, though- differences of opinion? What rate would be reasonable, if it was a flat-rate per RL hour? And what sort of cap would we be looking for per RL week? 500 xp max scripted RP XP per RL week? 250, 750? DM granted and quest XP likely wouldn't count against a scripted RP XP cap, soft or otherwise.