Able Learner

[Ithildur]

Humans are clearly the PGing race of choice.

I don't really buy that a 20 year old human runs circles around a 200 year old elf or 150 year old dwarf in the skills department... but apparently it's canon.

If by powergaming you mean avoidance of racial skill bonuses that don't count because they're "free". then yes. Choosing human allows one to "spend" skill points rather than have them awarded and assigned automatically.

As far as short-lived vs. long-lived differences, one only needs compare the helplessness of a 6 month old baby human to a 6 month old animal to gain some insight into that rationale, but I agree: we need to look into a solution to the exclusion of bonus points from skill use. It makes no sense.

Holly's description of the effectivenss of Able Learner feat gives one the impression that it's much more powerful than the racial bonuses to a handful of pre determined skills that demi humans get. In fact, my guess is that a fundamental part of the uberness is precisely because it's so flexible, in contrast to say a halfling paladin in full plate getting bonuses to hide/ms.

As far as... erm... gaining insight on demihumans vs humans by comparing a 6 month old human to a 6 month old animal... that's what you call comparing apples and orangutans. This reminds me of people who insist elves are pretty much mentally retarded until they reach age 100...

[Mick]

This reminds me of people who insist elves are pretty much mentally retarded until they reach age 100...

...and it's downhill from there.

[Riotnrrd]

This reminds me of people who insist elves are pretty much mentally retarded until they reach age 100...

...and it's downhill from there.

Oh, SNAP!

[HEEGZ]

There are already low light vision scrolls that no one uses

Does ALFA have any pitch black interiors where light actually serves a purpose?

BG has a few.

[johnlewismcleod]

Discribing skill use as powergaming is much like comparing apples and orangutans IMO. Skill use is rarely an available option IG, and when it is available for use the uses are almost totally as support for the party.

I've always liked to play skill based PC's, but it's very frustrating how little I am able to use skill IG, and think I can say confidently that skill based PC's by definition can't be PGer PC's.

BG has taken some steps to alleviate this, but if you want to gain riches and XP you need to kill things, and any talk about further hampering skill use is going to continue to illicit objections from me (even if the source is my good freind hollyfant ).

[Ithildur]

Discribing skill use as powergaming is much like comparing apples and orangutans IMO. Skill use is rarely an available option IG, and when it is available for use the uses are almost totally as support for the party.

I've always liked to play skill based PC's, but it's very frustrating how little I am able to use skill IG, and think I can say confidently that skill based PC's by definition can't be PGer PC's.

BG has taken some steps to alleviate this, but if you want to gain riches and XP you need to kill things, and any talk about further hampering skill use is going to continue to illicit objections from me (even if the source is my good freind hollyfant ).

Relax dude

First of all a statement like 'humans are clearly the PGer's choice' needs to be taken with a grain of salt and pinch of humor, though there's reasons why I said it.

Skills can mean the difference between life and death, success of failure, very very often in alfa, more so than being able to kill orcs. Skills are an extremely important part of 'success' in ALFA; I'm sure you know it's not just 'you need to kill stuff to gain xp and riches'.

Holly is obviously quite familiar with this feat from reading his posts and discussing this with him in irc; if he feels that the feat is quite uber I would give him the benefit of the doubt, then go from there and ask 'is it a good idea to make this a human only ability, when humans in nwn2 already enjoy a free pass with regards to light penalties and such?'

[johnlewismcleod]

[Skills can mean the difference between life and death, success of failure, very very often in alfa, more so than being able to kill orcs. Skills are an extremely important part of 'success' in ALFA; I'm sure you know it's not just 'you need to kill stuff to gain xp and riches'.

I had an L5 rogue/bard who advanced nearly solely upon RP bonks from DM's. He ramaimed among the poorest of PC's on the TSM server until I finally took him to BG and at L5 began to use him to kill some things.

I'm not complaining (at least not loudly), he was great fun and that's what I like. But unless things have changed dramatically on TSM recently, you can't generate coin except through chopping-up monsters.

While it's true that being able to sneak about can potentially keep a PC alive, the only time such sneaking produces anything in income or XP is when partied and serving a monster chopper(s) (other than a few one shot statics).

I'm all for balance, but unless I'm hopelessly incompetant (and that is admittedly a possibility ), skills don't a wealthy or powerful PC make.

[mr duncan]

'is it a good idea to make this a human only ability, when humans in nwn2 already enjoy a free pass with regards to light penalties and such?'

+60

We ALL knew how nice the feat was when we went live. This is one of the reasons it was allocated to level one only. You have to GIVE UP one of those swanky level one only feats to get this one

Your sun elf wizard should be able to take this feat, it means he dosnt get Luck of Heroes. He cant take Toughness, or any one of the feats that a player must select at level one only. These are ALL nice feats, and able learner is NOT better than them... it is simply a /nice/ feat.

I dont hold your high skills against you Holly, its a choice you made with your PC. You gave up other feats to get it. Wallow in it.

Also, you want to talk about how powerful of a magic item it would be? The toughness feat is pretty damned close to giving someone a +2 CON item. Luck of heroes is an amulet of natural armor AND a scarab of protection. Let us not not forget the spellcasting prodigy either.



J


PS- I feel like pointing out that a real strength of a rogue is not his wide skill base, thats NICE... but the juicy juice you squeeze a rogue for are your evasion, uncanny dodge and the pinncale of rogue-ness, the sneak attack. If you think that rogues are only good for their skills... Ill tell you that you have a rapier in you hand while you are whining that its only a butterknife

[johnlewismcleod]

PS- I feel like pointing out that a real strength of a rogue is not his wide skill base, thats NICE... but the juicy juice you squeeze a rogue for are your evasion, uncanny dodge and the pinncale of rogue-ness, the sneak attack. If you think that rogues are only good for their skills... Ill tell you that you have a rapier in you hand while you are whining that its only a butterknife

I don't disagree (although I'm still feeling disagreeable ). What I've been whining about is that these skills, including dodge, evasion, and sneak attack are only really useful in support of a party. Try to go out and powergame with a rogue or bard and I think that will quickly become clear.

[mr duncan]

What I've been whining about is that these skills, including dodge, evasion, and sneak attack are only really useful in support of a party. Try to go out and powergame with a rogue or bard and I think that will quickly become clear.

Keep whining then? Theres no room or reason to make rogues more able to solo or powergame. For your information I find (or found when we had a workable Pstorage system) plenty of fighters lying in the goblins caves with loot a plenty for the party that found them.

If your complaint is really this then its not valid. Get a party and your rogue wont feel useless. Or play something else and leave the rogues to people who know how to handle a rapier. (Bigdaddybones might be able to help you sharpen up some)

We dont need to change our system, but you might be happier adjusting your play style



J

[johnlewismcleod]

The genisis of this post, John, was that the Able Learner feat could be used to PG, and recently in other threads I've been seeing many other skills under attack. My point was, and is, that skills aren't useful for powergaming, and that monkeying with skills is going to negatively impact the bard/rogue classes that already are only useful as support.

"It ain't broke...so don't fix it!" as they say here in Texas.

With all due respect, John...I think you've completely misunderstood what I'm saying here. Perhaps re-read?

[HEEGZ]

Does anyone have any new information to add, or have all of the major points been brought up?

[oldgrayrogue]

I have never thought Able Learner was particularly uber. It simply allows for greater versatility in skills across classes. Yes a fighter with Able Learner can build some rogue skills like hide, ms, spot etc, but usually the fighter has so few skill points to spend per level it does not translate to an appreciable advantage. I don't think it needs to be limited to humans either.

[Coaan]

Might it be possible to only allow one of these feats to be taken at level one? If you have to give up luck of heroes or mind over body, or another useful feat like that to take able learner, I would think that's enough of a trade off for it's benefit.

JLM is correct in saying that while skills do make quite an awesome character that can be employed in many varied and interesting ways for rp, that's where their usefulness ends. When it comes down to it, that bugbear barbarian isn't going to care if you are well versed in the intricasies and mystique of spellcraft, it's going to club you over the head.

When that combat kicks in, the combat engine takes over and if you don't have the numbers, splat.

PS. I'm also fine with other races having this feat...especially if they are willing (as with many classes) to give up their only first level feat for it.

[Rotku]

Wow. Never knew about this feat! Does this mean at last I'm able to make a fighter who has a bit more diplomacy than "Grunt"?