A Land Far Away

Brokenbone wrote:Could it possibly drag off a PC who you wanted to kill on an isolated cliff top / across a river / across a wall while his/her friends plinked ineffectually against you with arrows or were denied other attack by terrain? Don't know!

Such an action would require DM supervision, so abuse in that sense shouldn't really be a concern. Still, it does seem like it would be annoying for the players to have to stand far away from the person using DD just so they wouldn't get dragged along every time it was used.

On the other hand, implementing a query seems equally awkward. I mean, how much of a delay would such a query permit? Could one PC DD past something, look around, report back, so that the other could either accept or reject being carried along?

Scrapping the ability to carry someone with you might be preferable to either.

I'm a complete code noob, so bear that in mind.

Depending on how the faction thing works, would it be possible to use it in tandem with the auto-follow tool to enable selecting if you want to follow or not, and then calculate based within the Medium area circle?

Two examples:

Bob, a level 8 Wizard, wants to Dimension Door with a couple of his friends out of a group of five. At level 8, Bob can bring 2 of his human buddies with, but three of his party members set themselves to auto-follow him. Bob casts the spell, the spell calculates the number of people in the circle that are auto-following him among "faction equals", recognizes he can only take 2, and takes the two that are closest to him along with Bob for the ride.

Bob, again a level 8 Wizard, and his friend Bill are engaged in CvC with two other characters hostile with them and want to flee. Bill sets himself to auto-follow Bob, as do the other two characters trying to CvC him to give chase as they start to run away. Bob casts Dimension Door, the spell calculates that he can take up to two people at his level along with him, checks how many are auto-following him among "faction equals", and takes Bob and Bill off without taking the other two hostile characters.

I'm not sure if this is possible / calculation intensive as I'm not sure how effective and usable our auto-follow scripting is, but it would resolve most of the issues in the most sensible way where dragging others along is concerned.

Obviously if it's not workable / too intensive on servers we can simplify it to not drag others with at all and just require a DM for that too.

We could just select by membership in a party, and snag the people who are closest first if there's not enough space in the spell to bring everyone along.

Zelknolf wrote:We could just select by membership in a party, and snag the people who are closest first if there's not enough space in the spell to bring everyone along.

That would work too, and gives the person casting the spell ultimate control over who to bring along within the spell limit number.

NWN1, you used a targeting reticle to figure out where to jump. Everyone knew what every walkable tile looked like in NWN1, I think. The world was made up of only so many walkable surfaces, if you know what I mean.

See what happens in an NWN2 sandbox module I guess. Might be surprised as a user if you pick a spot which hasn't got what's it called, "walkmesh" underneath it? The invisible stuff the walkable universe is made of? Again, NWN1, you knew not to target say, a river or sea or sheer looking cliff face since hey, it's an invalid target... wonder though with NWN2's much more organic, hilly, "objects get cut around" world, if you'd end up with a surprising amount of invalid targets... which might just mean shunt a little bit away from where you first aimed and WHAMMO, small amount of damage (the lowest tier).

*SHRUGS*

*VANISHES*

Zelknolf wrote:We could just select by membership in a party, and snag the people who are closest first if there's not enough space in the spell to bring everyone along.

Right, but isn't that just as problematic? If a wizard is adjacent to a fighter and they're being charged by orcs, he may want to DD to the top of a nearby hill. The fighter doesn't want to. How to resolve that?

I just don't see a way to do it. In PnP, the wizard could simply say "I DD and don't bring anybody." The fighter could say "I do not permit him to DD me." It's that simple. In a real time environment, short of making 2 different spells and a mode for everyone called "Accept Dimension Door" which can be turned on and off, there's no way to make that aspect of the spell function as intended.

I'm still leaning towards the idea of reduced functionality alongside reduced spell level. It seems the most elegant solution, simply remove the aspects of the spell that are problematic, and determine spell level accordingly.

make two versions of the spell, similar manner to the protection from spells.

one which transports x number of people around the wizard, and one that only transports the wizard. Would require a little bit of xml changes I believe.

The "tactical" (= in battle) use of this spell to charge or retreat would be a neat addition, but could be troublesome to implement in practice, as mentioned.

Call me pessimist, but the strategic use of this spell I see bringing nothing but trouble. Just like Teleport. By strategic I mean for example overcoming obstacles such as walls, doors, cliffs, etc with the spell.
1) The DM needs to be fully on board about and with the spell, as then it's a quest cracker.
2) It creates a "magical arms race" with PC possibilites in general, as anyone with two castings of this (and an alternate form) could arguably rather trivially rob the bank, murder many key NPCs etc... Unless the story goes the bank and every other relevant place is warded with magic and more magic.
3) Another tool spell that perpetuates the way of questing where every problem equals going through the spell list to find the right spell, as spells are the tools that count. Just a pet peeve of mine, and one of the main reasons I prefer the low-level setting.

If we add another clause to the spell that it can only zip to places the PC could walk to, and implement that on-engine, then I suppose it would work. And practically remove "strategic" use.

Blindhamsterman wrote:make two versions of the spell, similar manner to the protection from spells.

one which transports x number of people around the wizard, and one that only transports the wizard. Would require a little bit of xml changes I believe.

Combine that with the party requirement and I think that's a pretty solid setup for most potential situations.

Brokenbone wrote:See what happens in an NWN2 sandbox module I guess.

Naturally such would need to be done; I'm willing to give such a try myself once the spell is in working order.

t-ice wrote:Call me pessimist, but the strategic use of this spell I see bringing nothing but trouble. Just like Teleport. By strategic I mean for example overcoming obstacles such as walls, doors, cliffs, etc with the spell.
1) The DM needs to be fully on board about and with the spell, as then it's a quest cracker.
2) It creates a "magical arms race" with PC possibilites in general, as anyone with two castings of this (and an alternate form) could arguably rather trivially rob the bank, murder many key NPCs etc... Unless the story goes the bank and every other relevant place is warded with magic and more magic.
3) Another tool spell that perpetuates the way of questing where every problem equals going through the spell list to find the right spell, as spells are the tools that count. Just a pet peeve of mine, and one of the main reasons I prefer the low-level setting.

All of these things arguably could be viewed pessimistically for existing spells. Knock gets you past doors in most cases unless magically warded, knock and invisibility would allow a PC to rob a bank "rather trivially", etc.

The spell would shine on a very expensive use per day item for a nasty heavy armored fighter to keep in his kit. *ZAP*, jump to the back ranks of an encounter where the squishy casters are at, and rain down hell on them.

mogonk wrote:Right, but isn't that just as problematic? If a wizard is adjacent to a fighter and they're being charged by orcs, he may want to DD to the top of a nearby hill. The fighter doesn't want to. How to resolve that?

By leaving party. Or by standing farther away from the fighter. Or both.

Zelknolf wrote:

mogonk wrote:Right, but isn't that just as problematic? If a wizard is adjacent to a fighter and they're being charged by orcs, he may want to DD to the top of a nearby hill. The fighter doesn't want to. How to resolve that?

By leaving party. Or by standing farther away from the fighter. Or both.

Target the wizard for about 2-3 rounds with a 2H melee weapon, limited risk of being DD'd then.

Zelknolf wrote:

mogonk wrote:Right, but isn't that just as problematic? If a wizard is adjacent to a fighter and they're being charged by orcs, he may want to DD to the top of a nearby hill. The fighter doesn't want to. How to resolve that?

By leaving party. Or by standing farther away from the fighter. Or both.

Just party selection isn't perfect but it's pretty good I think. If auto-follow can entered in as an additional requirement to pull others then you'd be able to have individuals not be moved against their will; otherwise having two modes for the spell (one for moving just the caster and one for moving multiples) works for most cases where you don't want to move a fighter being charged by orcs even without requiring an auto-follow toggle.

To sum up the basic possibilities for selection here:

Two Spell Modes (a'la Scorching Ray which can target single or AOE):

Mode 1: Only transports the caster.
Mode 2: Transports caster and others.

Others can be defined by some combination of three current systems: auto-follow, in party, and distance from caster.

In Party + Distance From Caster is workable in my mind and seems to cover almost all the bases situationally. Auto-Follow + Party + Distance from Caster is the best available option for ensuring specificity in who gets moved, but I'm not sure as to the difficulty in coding such. Distance From Caster is used mostly only if there are more possible followers/party members within range than the caster can handle, in which case the closest ones get the ride.

Am I missing anything in this summary of options discussed so far? Any additional ideas that would work better or be easier on coding where moving multiples are concerned?

Not entirely distinct from the above, but in my mind the best way to do it:

Dimension Door, lvl 3, self-only.
Greater Dimension Door, lvl 5, affects all members of the PC faction within a certain range.

Both spells can only target locations within LOS, with the exception of doors and ATs.

Splitting the spell prevents any confusion about the effect that will be produced and keeps the spell level commensurate with the effect's power. Requiring auto follow for party movement is unnecessarily cumbersome for combat situations, as is requiring the caster to delineate his intent during casting. This way, for either option, a caster can press a hotkey, then click a target location, and get the effect he wants.

It still ignores the issue of consent from the PC being carried along for the ride, but that's a sacrifice I think we can afford to make.

mogonk wrote:Not entirely distinct from the above, but in my mind the best way to do it:

Dimension Door, lvl 3, self-only.
Greater Dimension Door, lvl 5, affects all members of the PC faction within a certain range.

Both spells can only target locations within LOS, with the exception of doors and ATs.

Splitting the spell prevents any confusion about the effect that will be produced and keeps the spell level commensurate with the effect's power. Requiring auto follow for party movement is unnecessarily cumbersome for combat situations, as is requiring the caster to delineate his intent during casting. This way, for either option, a caster can press a hotkey, then click a target location, and get the effect he wants.

It still ignores the issue of consent from the PC being carried along for the ride, but that's a sacrifice I think we can afford to make.

I can't say I really like this approach compared with keeping it as a level 4 spell with two options. Two options are already available for other spells like Scorching Ray and it doesn't impede use of the spell in combat. Auto-follow is something a lot of players are already used to and is pretty easy to toggle on or off quickly.

It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure there's a need to split it into two unique spells of different levels from the original PnP setup. This is doubly true if we ever intend to use Teleportation as a DM RP spell because it's also a level 5 spell but with vastly superior distance, making a "greater dimension door" of 5th level spells moot.