What Does Permadeath Cost Us

[AcadiusLost]

And it was also my impression that it was one of those spells that was only cast on those who were "of Faith".

This was my impression as well, and although it may be "realistic," it does mean that if you choose to worship a god other than the same one the local NPC high priest worships, raise dead will not be available to you, at any price.

This is incorrect, at least as far as it has been handled in the past. The canon restriction, as I understand it, is that a Faithless PC cannot be resurrected/raised. Without a "patron diety", souls are claimed by Kelemvor for the Wall and are unavailable for resurrection. So, a PC who has "None" selected as their diety cannot be raised, but there is no requirement for the caster's diety to match that of the fallen. There has been some discussion of to what extent a caster (or a diety) might be able to "see" the faith of the fallen PC and/or choose not to complete the ritual on the basis of it, but nothing like that was ever implemented. Strictly speaking, the spell descriptions don't say anything about adding some sort of powerful additional divination effect to give the caster information about the target of the spell. So, a Tormite priest who raised a Banite or Cyricist might find quickly find themselves unpopular with their brethren and/or diety, but nothing stops them from actually casting the spell successfully.

This said, it is at the discression of the DM and build teams as to what spells are offered to which PCs by scripted NPCs; a secret Sharran cleric might not offer Raise Dead as a service to a wealthy yet obviously Mystran PC, for example. I have generally discouraged metagaming diety-detection scripts in NPCs across the board, I believe both TSM and BG are now using scripts that allow PCs to bluff their way into persistently making temple NPC clerics count them among the faithful (with persistent consequences for failure). Even if the spell were only available as a conversation option to "Members of the Church", such members would be free to pay for it to be cast on their allies/friends/people who paid them enough to make it worth their time/etc, as makes sense IC.

To clarify:
-Raise Dead / Resurrection allowed in ALFA
-Raise Dead / Resurrection limited to non-Faithless PCs
-Raise Dead / Resurrection requires 3.5E canon material component
-Raise Dead / Resurrection does not require diety match between caster and PC

[Mulu]

Well that's new then, because I was clearly informed of a need of a match between caster and dead guy in both deity and alignment to get the spell cast, by DM's, on multiple occasions.

So then the only hurdle is trying to get enough resources to actually get the spell cast. It's still only going to be available to a select few due to the limited resource environment, of course.

[Curmudgeon]

good post mulu. One comment with regards to you nwn vs nwn2 comparioson, while I have certainly heard of fewer raises, likewise I have heard of a lot fewer deaths.

It seems likely that as a function of time, those who lack the twitch skills to survive the environment either leave or become townies.

Actually, we've added a couple of changes to help lower "twitch"-related death rates: 1) NPCs and monsters lose interest and stop attacking a PC who drops to 0HP or below; and 2) The worst condition a PC can be put in as the result of a blow is -6HP. That way the unfortunate PC's companions have a chance to stabilize him before he bleeds to death.

While this doesn't help the solo player, those who can make friends have a far better chance of survival.

[AcadiusLost]

There is also a 2nd level cleric spell called "Stabilize" in the game that works like a Mass Cure Minor Wounds, allows halting the bleeding of any and all nearby PCs, avoids the twitch-management challenge of targeting a potion on the bleeding PC. Sold as a canon-priced scroll at at least some of the religious merchants on TSM.

re: Diety matching, it does sound like the DMs who discussed the matter with you were mistaken. Even as far back as the '04 days of NWN1-SD, PCs were being raised by the local temples without regard to their diety choice. Might have been some meta-alignment checks involved in some of the scripts in the old days (evil PCs needed to go to a different NPC to get raised), but the principle was the same all through my time in ALFA. Individual DMs or DM teams likely made some of their own calls with regards to particular cases ("I rule that Diety X would never allow a follower of Diety Y to be rezzed by one of his/her priests", etc), but then again we had a lot of that sort of house-ruling going on when we had many more servers.

[stormsong]

While this doesn't help the solo player, those who can make friends have a far better chance of survival.

Once they stabilize, can they start healing?

[stormsong]

I’m of two minds about the permadeath we have in ALFA. Until players reach a relative high level, the spells that can bring them back from the death are in reality not available.

As AcadiusLost put it; Raise Dead / Resurrection are allowed in ALFA, are limited to non-Faithless PCs (have specified a deity), require a material component (5k or 10k diamond) and do not require deity match between caster and PC. I have pointed this out to my friends, res/raise is available, but they point back that since the cost is well above that which the standard low level player can afford, for all intents, most deaths are final. If a player does nothing but save gold, based on the wealth tables, they would need to be 5th level (on average) to afford a raise.

No question in my mind that we lose a large number of players who otherwise would be swelling our ranks.

However, some form of permadeath is useful. I have to agree with Mulu. Permadeath does not ensure good RP. In the Realms of the Dragon Reach, we had excellent RP (with the usual idiots) for well over a year in a PvP and respawn environment. Here in ALFA, I think the quality of the RP comes from the expectation of DMs and players that everyone will play it right.

I see permadeath creating a high degree of intensity. But best of all, permadeath interrupts the constant churning and looting cycle that results in high XP and money. I’m willing to look at anything that can slow that down. Players are much more cautious and careful. With the danger of forever death, the rate of leveling is much more sensible and absurd levels of wealth are hard to gain quickly.

I can’t help wondering if there is a way to maintain the benefits of permadeath without scaring away the average player.

[stormsong]

I don't want to join up and start trying to change things. My apologies if that has been the appearance.

I'm here to stay with everything just as it is or change or no change. I am just looking for ways that I can make the most contribution.

[Rotku]

I don't want to join up and start trying to change things. My apologies if that has been the appearance.

You're welcome to comment on anything mate.

And just FWIW, it's ALFA, not ALPHA. A Land Far Away

[stormsong]

And just FWIW, it's ALFA, not ALPHA. A Land Far Away

One of the dangers of speed reading.

[HEEGZ]

To clarify:
-Raise Dead / Resurrection allowed in ALFA
-Raise Dead / Resurrection limited to non-Faithless PCs
-Raise Dead / Resurrection requires 3.5E canon material component
-Raise Dead / Resurrection does not require diety match between caster and PC

This is exactly correct. It is possible to have a dead character raised in an IC fashion. However, barring that, a dead PC remains dead.

[oldgrayrogue]

Stormsong:

I started a similar thread soon after joining ALFA. I was pretty mercilessly shot down then, which shows how far we have come as a community in terms of civility since.

I came from a respawn PW where I played for over a year prior to ALFA. JLM, I love you man, but exceptional RP is indeed possible, and going on, on respawn PW's. On that prior world I had some of the most intense, immersive RP I have ever enjoyed in D&D. It is also true that a lot of the heavily populated NWN2 PW's out there (some of which I tried before ALFA) are dreck. Its not quite WOW but its close. While permadeath is not necessary for good RP IMO, it does make good RP much more likely. It also pretty much eliminates the other problems that arise in respawn servers which ultimately led me to leave my prior persistent world: level and wealth imbalance. On a respawn server, even one with modified respawn, what you ultimately end up with is a server with all very high level and extraordinarily wealthy PC's. This is a lot of fun for about a year, but if you want to turn new players who are into RP off, log them in to a server where most PC are level 17 or above and can afford anything on the server 10 times over. The odd or ironic result of the above is that once you are so uber nothing can kill you, and you can respawn if you do, all that's left to do is RP =) But to new players it is so incredibly intimidating to join such a world as a noob that they either whine about it, leave, or powerlevel really fast so they too can be super powerful and fabulously wealthy.

So what's my point? Permadeath is IMO a much better system. It fosters immersion and avoids many of the other problems with respawn detailed above. That's a pillar I would stick with.

The "one PC" and "first level start" rules, however, I would love to see changed. IMO the only reason for a one PC rule is to prevent possible metagaming right out of the box. So you are telling your player base "we assume you are all cheaters and are going to make it impossible for you to cheat by limiting you to one character." To me this is silly. It punishes the collective for the sins of a few. I have played multiple PCs without metagaming and so have a lot of other people I know. The one PC rule limits creative expression of the player base, and reserves expression through multiple character concepts only to DMs. I play on one server now and DM on another. I don't see a big difference in allowing multiple PCs. I don't think its benefits outweigh its drawbacks, and yes, I think it costs us players. But a lot of people here disagree with me. Its a "pillar" and not likely to ever change IMO.

The level 1 start is another rule I'd like to see changed because it also IMO limits creativity in character concepts and just results in either a 1) level 1 to 3 meat grinder or 2) powerleveling to level 3 or 4 so you can survive and really start to enjoy all of the server content. I think it costs us players as well. If we had a level 2 or 3 start, and adjusted our static content to reflect that, I think the world would be more interesting and robust. People would not be "tavern RPrs" --except out of choice not necessity which is as it should be-- and new players could enjoy more of the content right off the bat. This results in player retention, another desirable goal.

The real issue as I see it is not so much permadeath as the other rules which limit creativity and decrease survivability. Changing that would be conducive to more options and opportunities for players to enjoy RPing concepts they conceive of over the long term. All that being said, I don't think any of the above is likely to change any time soon. Tell your friends that if they want really good RP they can absolutely find it here as long as they accept that the above are not likely to change, ever.

~OGR

[Mulu]

Another way to remove the level 1-3 hamburger grinder would be to scale the bleed rules, like they are in HABD by default, to make it much easier to survive encounters at low level and harder as you progress. It's still permadeath, just a gentler and lowbie friendly version of it. It's what I use in all of my campaigns.

[NickD]

Multiple PCs is the issue I started up on soon after I first joined and was very mercilessly shot down then.

The "one PC" and "first level start" rules, however, I would love to see changed.

This is an issue I keep flip-flopping on... Usually depending on how many character concepts I have floating around in my head (4 at the moment). I had an idea that would address both issues:

Allow multiple PCs starting from level 1, but only allow one character to go over level 3. All other characters would stop XP gain from all sources once they hit 3rd level. Possibly using the old "validation required at level 4" (level 4 only) thing for the sake of simplicity. This would mean
1. People won't get bored of their current character and just stop playing because they don't want to throw away all the time they spent with them by retiring.
2. Lessen the impact of losing a higher level character and then having to go through the level 1-3 grind.

[dergon darkhelm]

I would agree that Permadeath (again, this means NO RESPAWN only) likely discourages some potential members, but I believe it's essential to support the "fully in-character" mode we try to operate in on-server. Having the likely-permanent death of the PC as a potential consequence for any given risky action encourages the player to think from the PC's viewpoint.

+1 to AL

This makes heroism truly heroic, murder truly murderous, and a pointless lonely death truly pointless.

Yes, it does cost us players, but I am fine with that. If it were to change ALFA would perhaps gain more players, but it would certainly lose me. (not a big loss, I know, but just saying )

[hollyfant]

Would not the opposite apply also, in that people might pack up and leave if PC respawning is introduced in ALFA?