Bleeding (ad-nauseum)

[White Warlock]

It's been brought up often and i agree it should be resolved. In ALFA's NWN1 it is too slow, so i gather this fast bleed in ALFA's NWN2 was an overcompensation. What is required to change so that bleeding is a bit slower?

[AcadiusLost]

What we've got now is basically the PnP 3.5E bleeding rules, plus a few house rule changes to make it less deadly (single-hit "floor" of -6 so you can't be instamorgued by a crit, much more frequent natural healing checks while in the negatives, forced diversion of mob's attention from downed PCs, etc).

I don't think it's significantly faster than NWN1's bleeding. Certainly, there was no conscious effort to speed up the initial bleeding.

I've heard one or two people consistently complaining about the bleeding speed, but my impression is that it's pretty satisfactory to most of the players, especially with the single-hit floor that essentially guarantees a minimum of 4 rounds (4x6=24 seconds) bleeding before dying, assuming all of the 10% rolls fail (90% * 90% * 90% = 72.9% chance at worst of failing all 3). If you're only knocked to -2, you're looking at 8 rounds (48 seconds), and 57% chance of at least slowing to the per turn rate.

If we dump more canon rules for house ones, we open a door for indefinite debate on what would be best. Not saying it can't be done, but certainly saying I don't think it needs to be done.

[dergon darkhelm]

I think the bleeding/dying is pretty good where it is atm.

You have 24 seconds RL to aid a downed PC (that's worst case).

I think some of the problems early on extend from use interface troubles.


SOmething like this:

PC A is in a party of 6 in a battle. He gets knocked unconscious to -6 by a crit.

RD 1: No one even notices he's down (fog of war type thing)
RD 2: Cleric accidentlay targets CLW on PC B who is just fine standing next to the fallen PC A
RD 3: Cleric tries to change targets but accidentally right clicks on himself instead and cast CLW on his own PC.
RD 4: Cleric just now notices he doesn't have his quickcast menu sent to spontaneous conversion and casts "magic weapon" on the fallen PC A
RD 5: Cleric finally cast the right healing spell on the right PC just as the guy gets morgued......


This is a bit of an extreme example, but I've had similar experiences with own Cleric in that I'm not very fast with the game mechanics.

However, all said, I think the dying and bleeding is fair, in line with PnP and set appropriately.

As people get used to the game interface it won't *seem* so fast.

[ç i p h é r]

Actually, the timing is considerably faster than 3.5e rules, but I think it all evens out when you factor in the other changes. Mobs aren't finishing off bleeding players (as a result of AL's AI tweak) and bleeding is resolved quicker so players can get on with playing in the event they make the required heal checks to survive.

Generally speaking, bleeding should last long enough so that:

If someone in your party survives an encounter, there should be enough time to heal you.

If nobody in your party survives an encounter, you should bleed out shortly thereafter (monsters will kill off all remaining bleeding and/or unconscious PCs).

It might be more ideal to have a slower rate of bleeding coupled with improved monster AI (to better handle downed PCs after combat, not during combat), but I think what we have now seems like a fair compromise. We can poll the player base though if people think otherwise.

[Mulu]

Generally speaking, bleeding should last long enough so that:

If someone in your party survives an encounter, there should be enough time to heal you.

I agree, and this is precisely what does not occur.

Actual examples, not hypothetical BS:

1. Trident caves with four PC's. PC's 1 and 2 go down, PC 3 gets fear effect. PC 4, me, draws hostiles off feared PC and kills them. 2 hostiles left. PC 4 engages remaining 2 hostiles, but is fighting to a standstill. PC 3 comes out of fear effect and engages remaining 2 hostiles, killing them. PC 4 successfully heals PC 1 while PC 3 is fighting hostiles. PC 4 tries to heal PC 2 next, but as the spell is going off he bleeds out. Dead PC.

2. Dire boar quest. Dire boar charges past mid level PC 1 to tear up low level PC's 2 and 3. Mid level PC bandages PC 2, me. PC 2 tries to heal PC 3, but graphics glitch causes PC 3 to appear in a location other than where it actually is, so mouse clicking on PC toon doesn't work. PC 2 finally tries to heal PC 3 using targeting system, but PC 3 bleeds out and dies during the attempt, despite dire boar being killed. Dead PC.

In both cases, the hostiles were dead, but the PC bled out either during combat or immediately thereafter.

And that's the crux of the issue. NWN2 is not PnP, it is not turn based combat, it's real time and there is lag and gfx issues and twitch skills come into play, and ALFA (apparently falsely) advertises itself as a roleplaying community not a twitch skills community. If ALFA is a twitch skills centered community, it should say so plainly. I absolutely refuse to play ALFA NWN2 unless and until the bleed system takes into account middle-aged roleplayers in a non-turn based game, nor will I recommend it to any other roleplayer.

[White Warlock]

No need to get ugly about it Mulu.

However, Mulu is correct, as is Cipher (to some degree):

Actually, the timing is considerably faster than 3.5e rules, but I think it all evens out when you factor in the other changes.

3.5 rules were created for PnP, where a DM is 'always' present, thus the 'other' changes Cipher indicates are managed by DMs in a PnP. Such is not the case in NWN. Also, as Mulu indicated, PnP is turn-based, while NWN2 is far less turn-based than even NWN1. The bleed time is 'considerably' faster than 3.5 rules, and also considerably faster than ALFA's NWN1. I'm really not sure if all of you have experienced just how fast the bleeding happens in ALFA's NWN2.

From a player's perspective, one or two failed attempts at bandaging a fallen comrade in the middle of a battle means that character is dead. And good luck in your character surviving, since you were forced to attempt it while still being attacked (AoO up the wazoo). Unlike a PnP, PCs cannot try to push their enemies forward while an ally pulls the dieing character away from the battle, then tries to care for him.

From a DM's perspective, it is really friggin' hard trying to rely on 'twitch skills' when you're trying to keep a conflict balanced. I wanted to pull one PC from bleeding to death, but because i didn't have time to run through using DMFI to do a cure light wounds, i had no other choice but to do a 'full' heal (in retrospect, i should have used pause, but i was on 'twitch mode' managing all the NPCs and didn't pull out of that mode). The DM tools isn't made for 'twitch-skill' oriented game rules.

Respectfully, i think this needs to be looked into. Many have voiced themselves about it (i add my voice), thus it is a concern.