A Land Far Away

As always please note the below suggestions are just that, so let’s please as I expect, respond positively.

Has there ever been any thought into the modification of NWN2 summoning spells to get closer to PnP style? Currently they are much weaker than PnP and very different.
I know many RP spells were added, and other high frequency spells for ALFA have been re-coded and modified to be more PnP related.
Considering the importance of summoning, I wonder why there has never been any interest here.

Some reasons for this brainstorm:

1) NWN2: One animal or monster type only automatically summoned. (Of course a limitation of the game engine as the game was created mostly as a single player game, with zero spontaneous RP for gameplay, thus summoning spells were basically used 100% as a combat enhancement/guard-dog style spell, or minimally used as a backup escape plan).
PnP: Choose from a long list of very different monster/creature types, and that choice can be very specifically chosen for many more tasks than just combat (i know in some DM'd sessions, DMs have allowed for RP purposes, summoners choosing an animal type for "Special purposes").

2) NWN2: Summon one creature at spell level of spell.
PnP: Trade current spell level summoned creature for 1d3 creatures at the next lower spell level, or 1d4+1 creatures at 2 spell levels lower than the original spell cast.

3) Druid Spontaneous casting is a very good benefit but gets hit by its current state by only being able to summon one creature of only one type.

Example:
Druid “Summon Nature's Ally 1” ("Summon Creature 1" spell in NWN2) calls 1 "Wolf" at Spell level 1.
Druid Summon Creature 2 calls 1 "Dire Badger" at Spell level 2.
Is it possible to allow, when “Summon Creature 2” is cast that the summoner gets a choice of 1 Dire Badger, or 1d3 Wolves?

So:
Level 3 Druid casts Summon Creature 2: Choose 1 Dire Badger or 1d3 Wolves.
Level 5 Druid casts Summon Creature 3: Choose 1 Dire Wolf or 1d3 Dire Badgers or 1d4+1 Wolves.
Level 7 Druid casts Summon Creature 4: Choose 1 Dire Boar or 1d3 Dire Wolves or 1d4+1 Dire Badgers.
…and so on?

Summoning spells are an extremely important help to all spell casting classes for survival. Not only do they give the weaker spell casting classes a combat edge when needed, they are very important for escape.
They do not last very long at all.

The “changing creature type” need not be changed as that would obviously make it so much harder to make automatic, and DMs can do that when present if needed in an RP sense.

And perhaps going as far as the three choices at spell level 3, for 1, 1d3, or 1d4+1 is asking too much as well.

But if perhaps dropping the 1d4+1 situation across all levels from spell level 3+ made this any easier, it would at least close up a huge gap between NWN2 and PnP style summoning, and either would be the end of it, or perhaps at least a good start.
If it made it even easier, perhaps drop the 1d4+1, and make the choice a hard coded “1 creature at level”, and “2 creatures at next lower level”:

Example:

Summon Creature 2 cast: Choose ONE Dire Badger or TWO Wolves.

Possible solution:

Specifically, and one way to get closer would be this suggestion on the NWN2_Vault, I do not know if this helps or is useless, but I hope it is a positive start if ALFA ever decided to explore this:

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NW ... ail&id=135

The description there states:

Now the Summon Creature Spells works as in the SRD:

1) you can summon multiple creatures via multiple spells
2) in every spell you can choose to summon 1d3 of creatures from the immediately lower spell.

the modification in spell.2da are in lines 175-182 and lines 1600-1615.
spell.2da used is the 1.21 version.

contains new icons in style with the existing ones for the new options of the Summon Creature Spells.
------------------
HOW TO USE:
put the files in override folder
------------------

Bottom Line:
code sent to kaedrin so he can merge it in his work (if he feels so).

With the same workaround used for summon creature spells is easy to make every other summon spell "multi" compliant.


So, what do you think ALFA?

How cool would it be, to cast Summon Creature 2, and get 3 Wolves?

**Remember, the new option can result in only ONE wolf when casting Summon Creature 2.
.....which is actually worse than the current state the spells are in.

Thanks for reading, and rolling your eyes.

~Matt

[edit] Ok... is the jist of all that to say you'd like the option to summon multiple critters of lower lvl as opposed to 1 critter of the usual lvl?

I suppose the biggest issue is walkmesh crowding and pathing. It's bad enough as it is, without each caster summoning a horde.
Next comes the AI: It is far too easy to tank even intelligent enemies by summons. PCs/players know to always leave the summon alone and go for the caster. AI does not, even if the AI is in control of a high-int human(oid).

I'd say this comes down to what was already mentioned several times: Your DM can help you utilize summons in creative ways, including summoning creatures along pnp spell rules and leaving summons to screen your escape. Giving wizards and druids the ability to crowd the battlefield with cannon fodder, which means to wield nwn2 pathfinding logic as a weapon, is unfortunately not a good idea.

This would mean more DMs would need to intelligently take control of creatures and use limbo liberally to bypass walkmesh issues. I did it in Exodus without issue, it's just a bit more micromanagement.

Naturally I’d like to see something like this added. (See what I did there? Fnar.) NWN2 Druids do seem to be pretty pants compared to their PnP counterpart as standard but a good DM sometimes helps to claw back some of that lost versatility. It’s a shame that the DM’s workload is added to in this manner and there’s always the risk that your current DM can’t be bothered with such things (or worse, does a half-arsed job of it).

T also makes a good point that pathfinding is bloody awful in NWN2 and insta-mobs vs insta-mobs -- what, you thought Blighters wouldn’t make use of this ability too? -- would create a critical mass of fail.

It’s a shame that Druids are so DM dependant when it comes to utilising at least some of their PnP versatility but we knew they were like this when we rolled ours up. (Wait, no I didn’t. Tam is my first and only character/Druid in ALFA and NWN2. I had no idea. Objection! “Overruled!” Double-objection! “Double-overruled! With knobs on!” )

Ithildur wrote:[edit] Ok... is the jist of all that to say you'd like the option to summon multiple critters of lower lvl as opposed to 1 critter of the usual lvl?

Yes.

I think it is much better to explain and suggest possible ways/solutions to requests instead of just saying: "Hey put this in."

In fact, once, long ago, I did just say: "Hey put this in.", and guess what Ith? a half dozen people said: without lack of better words: "Well, make suggestions how to do it, or learn to code. *flips virtual finger basically at what was assumed to be a greedy request by a lazy brainstormer*"

t-ice wrote:...summoning a horde.

Hordes? really??

I was talking 1d3 weaker beasties instead if 1, with an equal chance to get only 1 weaker than the spell level would normally give - so average = 2. . Hardly, HARDLY a horde. And in 3 years playing a Druid, I have absolutely never ever seen more than 1 summoned creature, in hundreds of groups, from 2-10 PCs range in those hundreds of groups at the same time. you're assuming what? 3-4...5! summoners all summoning 3 creatures at once? I'd be amazed if even 3 summoners would even be on the same server with the potential to do that in every 6 months on ALFA.

I think was a cool idea, and so far! No responses got me convinced against it yet. Come on! y'all gotta have better than this, are you all tired or something?

I wouldn't cast a Level 3 spell that has a 1/3 chance of being no better than the Level 2 equiv.

Two Druids in a party of five. (Not inconceivable.) Both Druids cast a Summon hoping for n x Wolves. Both also call their ACs. Potentially that party of five becomes a party of 13 with eight of those spazzing around like flaming pigs owing to NWN2 AC control mechanisms sucking shaved donkey spheres.

"Well, make suggestions how to do it, or learn to code. *flips virtual finger basically at what was assumed to be a greedy request by a lazy brainstormer*"

People say that because you should learn to script. Tech is always short-handed, and the people on it have their own ideas that they'd rather work on. Unless we start paying people to do development (in which place you have plenty of leverage: "do this thing or we'll stop paying you"), all you have is a request for someone else to do something for you with the understanding that you'll never repay them in any way.

Zelknolf wrote:... People say that because you should learn to script. Tech is always short-handed, and the people on it have their own ideas that they'd rather work on.

I agree with this. I for one would love to learn to script, and I believe there are others who would as well. Can someone suggest a good resource for learning NWN2 scripting?

Thanks!

How about this site: http://www.nwn2scripting.com/

Would it be a good start? Has anybody ever been through it to judge whether it is good? It seemed a bit vague to me, but I really don't know what to look for. Having the benefit of advice from somebody that knows what is or isn't a good tutorial would be invaluable to somebody that wants to learn.

I-KP wrote:I wouldn't cast a Level 3 spell that has a 1/3 chance of being no better than the Level 2 equiv.

Two Druids in a party of five. (Not inconceivable.) Both Druids cast a Summon hoping for n x Wolves. Both also call their ACs. Potentially that party of five becomes a party of 13 with eight of those spazzing around like flaming pigs owing to NWN2 AC control mechanisms sucking shaved donkey spheres.

I'm kind of with I-KP here; nwn2 summons are just horrible to handle (I've had a PC nearly die because someone summoned a critter behind my PC and neglected to tell it to move, trapping my guy between the mobs and the summon) without micromanagement from a DM with liberal use of Pause. I don't mind doing that for 1 critter, especially if it's something as valuable as an Animal Companion or familiar, and because clever things can often be attempted with summons, but a small flock is something I'd prefer not to micromanage unless maybe I'm DMing with no one else on the server except the lone druid PC.

Net result would be 1d3 retarded fodder in the game rather than just 1 retarded fodder in the game. If summons get tweaked I'd prefer that a wider/more RP and alignment suitable array of choices (of a SINGLE critter) be offered, rather than 1d3 inappropriate choices (at least we're not stuck with NWN1's giant spider); there were scripts from nwn1 servers that allowed you to tweak summon choices which I'd imagine might work in NWN2?

Wild Wombat wrote:How about this site: http://www.nwn2scripting.com/

Would it be a good start? Has anybody ever been through it to judge whether it is good? It seemed a bit vague to me, but I really don't know what to look for. Having the benefit of advice from somebody that knows what is or isn't a good tutorial would be invaluable to somebody that wants to learn.

It's a reasonably-good resource.

That said, there's no substitute for experience. I would continue to suggest to pick a project and use a resource like that for reference in service of the project. There is no document anywhere that will let you sit down, read it, and come out a compitent programmer in any language.

This project is a fine example. Spells, flavor text, and static quests are excellent entry points into the world of scripting stuff.

Thanks everyone for the responses.

Again thank you so very much for the input!

Still not convinced though....

My connection is also not great (laptop, using Wifi in China) and I experience lag pretty bad as well on most servers...but still think the pros of this far out-weigh the cons.

Remember, the use of this in game still means only the "option" is there.

If lag is an issue... summon 1. No change from current situation. No problemo.

If more than 1 summoner around, communicate not to summon same time which would even certanly can happen IC, or in close quarters. Or summon 1. Not 1d3. If it actually makes sense IC to not fill the tunnel with summoned creatures that will get in the way.........then ..just don't?

Again, the option to do it would be invaluable, especially to solo summoners.

It is when trouble starts when a summoner is alone (when there IS less lag, and no one to get "trapped behind the monster" (???Lol??) is less possible to non-existant) that this option would be MOST helpful. And AGAIN, it is an option! You don't have to use the 1d3!

Most of all when the fears stated above seem to be the "deciding" issue overall for to suggest not trying to get this going - this is when common sense on the summoner's part should come into play to /not/ summon 1d3, and choose 1 as per current situation.

I-KP: You said you'd never summon 1d3 less powerful creatures in place of an at-level summon spell to get 1. Just my opinion: I've been at it for a long time, playing a lot, and to be honest (we can agree to disagree of course), but, for me, i'd do it 99% of the time, especially instead of a level 2, level 4, and level 5 summon spell. Quite possibly for level 3 summon also depending on the enemy. Can't do it for level 1 anyway, so that would be a large majority of summon spells I would almost always take the 1d3 chance over the 1 creature.
I think perhaps your truly bad lag situation you've mentioned before, at best is one reason why you said this? Or is there another reason? Cause I really can't see why anyone wouldn't want 1d3 Dire Boars instead of 1 Shadow Mastiff (as 1 example)... if it WAS for combat purposes - even 1 Dire Boar is way better than 1 Shadow Mastiff and for RP purposes, a Dire Boar is also far more intimidating than a Shadow Mastiff as well!

Bottom line was not what was "better" anyway. It was about the massive difference between NWN2 summons and PnP summons that seems to be quite possible to at least fix just a little bit closer with the suggested link.

Still just spitballing of course, not trying to smackdown any much appreciated feedback. Hell I know it ain't gonna happen.

But...
Is there no chance the suggested NWN_vault option for 1d3 instead of 1 might be a simple thing to implement or think about? Anyone out there able to test it or show me how to test it without messing with my haks/install/game maybe?

I'd love to test it!

I-KP wrote:I wouldn't cast a Level 3 spell that has a 1/3 chance of being no better than the Level 2 equiv.

I'm not a fan of RNG in general. Happens enough in DnD spells as it is. In a pinch a 33% chance of wasting a level 3 spell only to get a level 2 spell effect isn't worth the risk IMO. If it was D2+1 then the versatility returns. I don’t see the point of building in more unreliability in order to try and make the proposal appear more attractive to the bean-counters when the overall objective is to try and reclaim some of the versatility that Druids lost in NWN2.

“This is a 66% improvement in versatility.” *whispers:* ”With a 33% chance of making things even worse than they were before.”

Just doesn’t make sense.