DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by paazin »

Yeah something like this already exists. Zspawn and so forth, and the various randomnpc commoners.
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kid
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by kid »

Another perk or player control henchmen is the possiblity to cast mass spells.
I'd really like to see this in and allow players to have them about.

Many times DM would like to add an NPC and just can't do to the bother.
NPC could even be a commoner we tried to rescue.
Putting that one as a level 1 henchman and securing it to the toon thats escroting him
(toon goal is to keep him safe) is another fun espect in a range of possiblities.

Would really like to see the henchmen system IG.
(again only as a DM tool)
Last edited by kid on Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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t-ice
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by t-ice »

Something preveted conversations running like they did on Exodus on MS. Thus the henchmen aren't working atm, even though the system parts are in. It's not in the "hench me" scripts, since the convo that runs them isn't even starting. Tech help needed and appreciated, perhaps there is some override by alfa core scripts on convos that needs something special set so that they run?
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by Basilica »

What conversation, what NPC, and in what area?
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by t-ice »

Conversation is "hench_generic". It calls scripts "hench_add_this" and "hench_remove_this" (I'm writing the names from memory, so perhaps not exact). They are installed on MS, and on Amn in its current form, too.

The problem is that the convo doesn't start when a PC talks to the NPCs. The creature object has the conversation set, and the convo file is installed to the module, far as I have understood from Castano.

NPCs with the "hench me" convo aren't auto-spawned anywhere, for obvious reasons. "Soldier" creatures under category "tice" on MS should have this system active.

The conversation simply gives two options to run these two scripts. (It is OoC, since it is general, not NPC specific. Presumably the DM runs the RP leading to the NPC becoming hanger-on to the party before this mechanical act.)

The hench add and remove scripts are simply overrides of OE scripts that add and remove a creature as henchman. They are necessary because the OE script uses creature tag to get creature object, which fails when several instances from one blueprint is created. The new scripts directly reference the creature object with whom the convo is initiated with.
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by t-ice »

*poke* Any help, please?
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by Zelknolf »

The ACR doesn't have any explicit support for henchmen. Too few people take, or even consider, the Leadership feat to justify the development.
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by t-ice »

Zelknolf wrote:The ACR doesn't have any explicit support for henchmen. Too few people take, or even consider, the Leadership feat to justify the development.
Well, that's not the problem, I've scripted that support. It's conversations that refuse to fire so the scripts won't run. ACR does support creating NPC conversations that can fire custom scripts, right?

Again, it's henchmen as DM tools, not PC properties. You don't need to have the leadership feat to have NPCs helping your party for a part of a plot. (Or your party helping them)
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by Zelknolf »

All events in the AI, all logging done, and all parts of the ACR assume that everyone in a PC's party is either a PC or the result of one of those PC's class powers. Please do not import content which subverts this assumption.
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by Sidhe »

Zelknolf wrote:All events in the AI, all logging done, and all parts of the ACR assume that everyone in a PC's party is either a PC or the result of one of those PC's class powers. Please do not import content which subverts this assumption.
:roll:

Its not some insidious plot to undermine ALFA, Zelk, it was/is a useful tool that was well supported by the players and saw much use on Exo. I am sure that if T and castano? want to implement it, it is because of this fact and because they believe it will add to the MS experience.

Being a scripting/tech legend I am sure even if it doesnt meet your standard you could offer advice that would bring it up to par?

People viewing things through a suspicious eyepiece, or in the case of swifts hats - contempt?, doesnt make any of us want to contribute. We should support each other.
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by Ronan »

Calling GetMaster() and GetFirst/NextFactionMember with bPCOnly = TRUE will I believe return the same results on a henchmen as it does a summon, animal companion or familiar. Off the top of my head I can't think where the ACR would break on henchmen vs. summons, familiars and the like?
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by Zelknolf »

We use this to calculate XP (both XP when they kill something, and XP when they are killed), to resolve the effects of spells, and to process major AI events (behavior, logging, loot, death results).

We can (should) improve our checks for figuring out what the heck some random thing in party is when we move the AI over to C#-- and that'll give us better footing from which to support this, and making it easier might (might; I make no promises) make it easier to justify-- but it's extremely difficult to dedicate work to making all of these foundational changes based on such a small group of characters (that is, those who took Leadership as a feat), and doing that is pretty-well prerequisite to adding remotely-reasonable handling for hirelings, which I know well are the actual (more difficult, I might note) request here.
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by Ronan »

Zelknolf wrote:We use this to calculate XP (both XP when they kill something, and XP when they are killed), to resolve the effects of spells, and to process major AI events (behavior, logging, loot, death results).
Well yes of course, but how do these break more with henchmen vs. familiars, summons and animal companions?

I can see XP breaking if you don't count henchmen as being an inherent feature, e.g. "the DM twinked this PC with some henchmen and he's farming everything for XP". though hopefully the henchmen would be factored into overall PC balance somehow. After all I can twink a PC with other items that let him farm stuff easily. Sure we don't have any "pricing" for henchmen but that doesn't seem to be a tech problem.
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by t-ice »

First, I remind again that these henchmen were and are planned to be used strictly with DM hands on, and DM eyes wathcing. When a DM logs, henchmen are removed. Using henchmen to hit spawns after a DM leaves will be told to be blatant abuse by player. (In case of a sloppy DM leaving henchies around, DM forced out due to internet crash, eg.)

AI can be an issue, sure. However, again it's DM hands on, so the DM is able to assess whether mob AI is compromised badly enough that henchmen reduce more from the experience than they bring. Any efforts to improve AI to better take into account non-PC party member (summons, animal comps, as well as henchmen) is certainly appreciated. But not necessary to bring this in.

Next for XP, I can certainly see if a low-level PC is tagged with high-level henchmen the kill xp scripts can go haywire. (Or perhaps even with lower level PCs) First, this should never happen, putting henchmen to totally overshadow PCs in actual combat is bad DMing and xp scripts is the least concern. But even if it does, it's on a DM event, and the DM can be assumed to handle giving his/her players proper xp. Having henchmen around can only lower kill xp rewards, not bring in surprise huge xp bundles for PCs, right?.

Finally, on logging, I suppose we can get extra log lines due to henchmen. I fail to see how this will break the game?
hirelings, which I know well are the actual (more difficult, I might note) request here.
No it's not. I've said it at least 5 times in this thread, and will say it again. These are DM tools. This isn't some conspiracy to bring in hired NPCs to farm static content with.
MaxBogs wrote: it was/is a useful tool that was well supported by the players and saw much use on Exo.
And in many cases the henchmen didn't even do combat. You can also make the PCs escort an NPC (or a wagon) this way.
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Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen

Post by Zelknolf »

Other direction on the XP awards-- henchmen in party do indeed result in higher-than-expected awards. Plausible numbers would be in the +25%-400% range.

Logging will cause false flagging on the database, logging over-CR kills which were not actually so (this would be that 400% case), and will not make any mention of whether a given PC abused the henchman in those error cases mentioned (DM disconnect/ crash; unable to clean up).

And the use cases described seem to all be things better handled by auto follow and a friendly reputation or faction setting: those being things we do support.
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