DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
A couple of tools I'd like to port over from Amn:
First is a progression of generic, human NPCs. I think this wouldn't be controversial, it's a number of creature models, clothes items and associated OnEquip scripts that give a list of commoners in the creator by:
male/female
young/old
fair/tan/dark (complexion)
commoner/merchant/noble (wealth level)
For a total of 36 creature models. The clothes get picked at random from list of appropriately dull-to-fancy of random colors for total variability in the hundreds. (Faces are set by the 36, suppose setting appearance from a table would be another level of fancy here)
Considering the mess of at least MS's Creature classifications, dunno where to classify these. But they should give a DM a tool to create at the touch of a button "a dandy noble from Calimport" or "a old peasant woman from the north sword coast". And the on-engine representations would have variability and randomness. Also the names in creator actually tells the DM what each looks like, as opposed to 20 lines of "commoner", where you have to dig by trial and error the one that is an old woman.
Second might be more controversial: Henchmen. It allows DMs to spawn allied NPCs that are controllable by PCs. This makes it far more feasible to have battles with not only PCs versus NPCs - since DMs then only need to control the hostile side, players can keep charge of their NPC allies. This includes a convo script, and each creature model with that convo associated can become a henchman. (That doesn't prevent the same creature model being used as hostile, if desired.)
Last, and probably the most controversial, feature of henchmen is tokens for PCs to allow "summoning" henchmen. This makes it more or a less as SRD Leadership feat (except that the engine won't handle more than 5 followers per PC, and of course total battles shouldn't be much more than a couple dozen creatures altogether). For now, I wouldn't propose to add henchmen summoning by players - make it purely as a DM tool. DMs can also assess if players are abusing the NPCs as meatshields in a manner real people would protest, basically make the NPCs behave as realistic soldiers/thugs/mercenaries/crusaders/jihadis etc.
So I suppose the question is, is it ok if I port these over?
ADD: Also guess I should ask should I just talk to Castano about MS, or add across servers? At least far as the Creator goes, the more we can avoid the mess of having same things classified in several categories under different server names the better.
First is a progression of generic, human NPCs. I think this wouldn't be controversial, it's a number of creature models, clothes items and associated OnEquip scripts that give a list of commoners in the creator by:
male/female
young/old
fair/tan/dark (complexion)
commoner/merchant/noble (wealth level)
For a total of 36 creature models. The clothes get picked at random from list of appropriately dull-to-fancy of random colors for total variability in the hundreds. (Faces are set by the 36, suppose setting appearance from a table would be another level of fancy here)
Considering the mess of at least MS's Creature classifications, dunno where to classify these. But they should give a DM a tool to create at the touch of a button "a dandy noble from Calimport" or "a old peasant woman from the north sword coast". And the on-engine representations would have variability and randomness. Also the names in creator actually tells the DM what each looks like, as opposed to 20 lines of "commoner", where you have to dig by trial and error the one that is an old woman.
Second might be more controversial: Henchmen. It allows DMs to spawn allied NPCs that are controllable by PCs. This makes it far more feasible to have battles with not only PCs versus NPCs - since DMs then only need to control the hostile side, players can keep charge of their NPC allies. This includes a convo script, and each creature model with that convo associated can become a henchman. (That doesn't prevent the same creature model being used as hostile, if desired.)
Last, and probably the most controversial, feature of henchmen is tokens for PCs to allow "summoning" henchmen. This makes it more or a less as SRD Leadership feat (except that the engine won't handle more than 5 followers per PC, and of course total battles shouldn't be much more than a couple dozen creatures altogether). For now, I wouldn't propose to add henchmen summoning by players - make it purely as a DM tool. DMs can also assess if players are abusing the NPCs as meatshields in a manner real people would protest, basically make the NPCs behave as realistic soldiers/thugs/mercenaries/crusaders/jihadis etc.
So I suppose the question is, is it ok if I port these over?
ADD: Also guess I should ask should I just talk to Castano about MS, or add across servers? At least far as the Creator goes, the more we can avoid the mess of having same things classified in several categories under different server names the better.
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
as long as the henchmen are DM spawned.... (and we're not gonna leave them
for the PCs to use after session ends)
I don't see a problem, though its not my call of course.
I think its awesome.
for the PCs to use after session ends)
I don't see a problem, though its not my call of course.
I think its awesome.
<paazin>: internet relationships are really a great idea
- Brokenbone
- Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
- Posts: 5771
- Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 1:07 am
- Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
DMless, summonable henchmen, other than the "absolute slaves" that like, magically summoned monsters, elementals and whatever are, I think would be a bucket of controversy. "Here, go die for 10gp pay." Leadership feat is one thing, but social skills, pay, morale to just say "too hard, running away", all sorts of stuff I can't see ever being too well scripted, DM adjudication of NPC reactions I'd think would always be something remaining under real human control.
As to "how NPCs react in a DM'd event", I don't know... a little more of a mixed feeling on putting some control into PC hands. On the one hand, west side of a field could be monsters, east side could be defender-faction soldiers and a peppering of PCs, AI alone will kick in any make them all tangle if they somehow get into visual range of each other. I can imagine though that depending on just how granular the command level is, moving around either individual or groups of troops to do things like a summons can do, like stand ground, follow me, attack, "heal me" (?) could be a little less chaotic. I am only imagining functions that are presently available with like, normal summons, but if there were functions like "march West and you take the heat as opposed to me", might have some problems. Regular summons at best will follow a PC around like ducklings, or break off and go attack if they come in visual range of hostiles... this still means the PC is probably pretty near the action. Though again, they could run up to a horde, command their ducklings to attack, and run away when they choose... the henchmen absent morale scripts are going to fight to the death as opposed to pop an invisibility potion and go home to lick wounds.
Again, mixed feelings, a short handed DM may not find themselves dragging groups of defenders against key groups of hostiles, maybe PCs could, but without stuff like morale playing a role, sure there's nice RP moments like "My stalwart men, attack!", but retreating from a battle is probably not going to happen. Stand 50 feet away and spam the "follow me" command to see these guys step a little away from a horde, then a heartbeat later decide "oh, horde, I should fight them", just an endless loop of AoOs...?
Maybe a "must see it to believe it" kind of thing.
As to "how NPCs react in a DM'd event", I don't know... a little more of a mixed feeling on putting some control into PC hands. On the one hand, west side of a field could be monsters, east side could be defender-faction soldiers and a peppering of PCs, AI alone will kick in any make them all tangle if they somehow get into visual range of each other. I can imagine though that depending on just how granular the command level is, moving around either individual or groups of troops to do things like a summons can do, like stand ground, follow me, attack, "heal me" (?) could be a little less chaotic. I am only imagining functions that are presently available with like, normal summons, but if there were functions like "march West and you take the heat as opposed to me", might have some problems. Regular summons at best will follow a PC around like ducklings, or break off and go attack if they come in visual range of hostiles... this still means the PC is probably pretty near the action. Though again, they could run up to a horde, command their ducklings to attack, and run away when they choose... the henchmen absent morale scripts are going to fight to the death as opposed to pop an invisibility potion and go home to lick wounds.
Again, mixed feelings, a short handed DM may not find themselves dragging groups of defenders against key groups of hostiles, maybe PCs could, but without stuff like morale playing a role, sure there's nice RP moments like "My stalwart men, attack!", but retreating from a battle is probably not going to happen. Stand 50 feet away and spam the "follow me" command to see these guys step a little away from a horde, then a heartbeat later decide "oh, horde, I should fight them", just an endless loop of AoOs...?
Maybe a "must see it to believe it" kind of thing.
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack
DMA Staff
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack
DMA Staff
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
Played with the Henchmen and spawning token on Exodus, as a player. Generally good stuff; an excellent way to give the GM undivided attention when trying to kill you. They worked okay, all behaving like ACs (w/ all the fiddliness that entails - including dumb target choices in combat) so you can make them speak and RP like a boss. My only real gripe was the way that Henchmen gambolled along behind you whenever you walked everywhere - looked like you were being permanently harassed by groupies all clamouring for an autograph.
Mined ewe, Exodus had a far smaller playerbase and operated much more like a table top session. Not sure if ALFA has quite the same level of compatibility with player-controlled mooks.
Mined ewe, Exodus had a far smaller playerbase and operated much more like a table top session. Not sure if ALFA has quite the same level of compatibility with player-controlled mooks.
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
All nice and well...
Don't think we mean to place on server just for random players to pick up and walk...
That's not gonna happen.
BUT
As a DM tool? heck yeah.
allow one on your session, give him morale rolls if you want, make him run,
make him do whatever you want.
if it saves the DM hassle... if it allows him to add a needed member to a small group
without the trouble of controling an NPC... Sure put it on for us to use.
I know I would use it and love it.
Don't think we mean to place on server just for random players to pick up and walk...
That's not gonna happen.
BUT
As a DM tool? heck yeah.
allow one on your session, give him morale rolls if you want, make him run,
make him do whatever you want.
if it saves the DM hassle... if it allows him to add a needed member to a small group
without the trouble of controling an NPC... Sure put it on for us to use.
I know I would use it and love it.
<paazin>: internet relationships are really a great idea
- oldgrayrogue
- Retired
- Posts: 3284
- Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:09 am
- Location: New York
- Contact:
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
Maybe move this to DM forums?
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
Is the first capability that you mentioned (palette of NPCs to spawn) something that zspawn does not already entirely provide? If not, what are the specific differences between this and zspawn?
- Basilica
-
- Dungeon Master
- Posts: 2021
- Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:37 am
- Location: Tarrant County, Texas
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
ooops...posted, then deleted.
What OGR said.
What OGR said.
I seek plunder....and succulent greens
[Wynna] Chula Lysander: [Talk] *Shakes head* I've been in worse situations. He was just....unjoyful! *stomps foot*
Retired PC's: Torquil, Gwenevere
Former PC's: Rugo, Flora, Rory Mor
[Wynna] Chula Lysander: [Talk] *Shakes head* I've been in worse situations. He was just....unjoyful! *stomps foot*
Retired PC's: Torquil, Gwenevere
Former PC's: Rugo, Flora, Rory Mor
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
This-- zSpawn already provides spawnable commoners with far more granularity in the control of the NPC's features, without the degrading of client performance associated with bloat in the creator.Basilica wrote:Is the first capability that you mentioned (palette of NPCs to spawn) something that zspawn does not already entirely provide? If not, what are the specific differences between this and zspawn?
As to henchmen, "summonable" NPCs are highly objectionable for a wide variety of reasons. Though I would be quite keen on henchman support, I would resist the inclusion of henchman-summoning widgets as sternly as possible.
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
Addressing one small point of your thought (henchmen):
N the shadewar in ALFA1 my red knight pally had a wand given to me OOC by EVro (DM) which allowed summoning of an aide de camp and the ability to drag a sqare around a group of NPCs and control them (in this case soldiers of loudwater)
move there
run
walk
charge
shoot
attack
that kinda thing. It got a bit ungainly with moving more than 20 NPCs as they start in formation but move to a point. But you get the idea.
Think the scripts would be transferable?
N the shadewar in ALFA1 my red knight pally had a wand given to me OOC by EVro (DM) which allowed summoning of an aide de camp and the ability to drag a sqare around a group of NPCs and control them (in this case soldiers of loudwater)
move there
run
walk
charge
shoot
attack
that kinda thing. It got a bit ungainly with moving more than 20 NPCs as they start in formation but move to a point. But you get the idea.
Think the scripts would be transferable?
playing Nathaniel Ward - Paladin of the Morninglord and devout of Torm (cookie cutter and proud of it)
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
Such scripts exist in the majority of ALFA1 modules, yes; we can indeed transfer them over, but that doesn't mean that such would be a good idea. The sort of thing works quite well with a particular kind of player with a particular kind of DM in a specific (isolated) scenario. Otherwise, it's granting PCs powers that they did not take (how many PCs have leadership? I'm betting that if I ran a report on active living PCs with the feat, it'd be 1-2) or throwing manpower into converting and debugging a series of scripts for the benefit of an extremely-small group of players. Neither case sounds particularly appealing.
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
Again. as a tool for DMs to use it should work.
I've often found myself wanting to add an NPC and just didnt want the hassle of controling one in battle. or even walking alongside the PCs... you cant AF with a NPC.
adding tools is never a bad idea. as long as no one intends to just hand them to PC
without a DM keeping track all the while.
I've often found myself wanting to add an NPC and just didnt want the hassle of controling one in battle. or even walking alongside the PCs... you cant AF with a NPC.
adding tools is never a bad idea. as long as no one intends to just hand them to PC
without a DM keeping track all the while.
<paazin>: internet relationships are really a great idea
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
We could probably allow DMs to AF on NPCs again (if that got axed by the new AF changes in 1.84). That would, hopefully, be a simple fix.
Edit: Unless you mean make an NPC follow something. That would probably be a little bit more work and we would need some sort of way to make it easily cancelable.
Edit: Unless you mean make an NPC follow something. That would probably be a little bit more work and we would need some sort of way to make it easily cancelable.
- Basilica
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
Meh
A. yes. do that. (if you can) would be nice to AF with NPC.
B. thats not what this is about. it allows players to get henchmen to control the same as Animal companions. (unless I got something wrong)
That of course would be bad with no DM...
but would be a nice tool to have while you DM.
I hate having to control NPC in battle.
And if I want the NPC to run I can still allways despawn it or something.
I imagine.
A. yes. do that. (if you can) would be nice to AF with NPC.
B. thats not what this is about. it allows players to get henchmen to control the same as Animal companions. (unless I got something wrong)
That of course would be bad with no DM...
but would be a nice tool to have while you DM.
I hate having to control NPC in battle.
And if I want the NPC to run I can still allways despawn it or something.
I imagine.
<paazin>: internet relationships are really a great idea
Re: DM tools: NPC matrix & henchmen
You can limbo active henchmen (as you can Animal Comps / familiars / summons). They will AT to the PC they are tied to the next time the PC ATs, but be off until then unless the DM brings them back. One trick is to limbo all friendly NPCs, press "all NPCs hostile" to have all hostiles pick PC targets, then bring back all friendly NPCs taking part in the fight. (Very easy to mess things royally with the "all NPCs hostile" button, since it makes ALL NPCs hostile, including animal comps, familiars and summons.)kid wrote: And if I want the NPC to run I can still allways despawn it or something.
I imagine.