Uncanny Dodge Fix

[Dorn]

"....pseudoheartbeats off of actual heartbeats...."

Who's heartbeat do we use then? Lead admins?

Does this mean that orcs will attack faster if KMJ gets angry or goes for a jog?

[Zelknolf]

Where did you get your benchmarks for pseudoheartbeat vs. custom heartbeat rate?

I reference all of the performance-related projects done in late ALFA1/ early ALFA2. Pseudoheartbeats can have parameters; heartbeats cannot. P != NP. c'est la vie.

[Ithildur]

Nuff said. Do some tests on server performance hit, see how it goes from there? I've only rolled one character ever with the class feature in ALFA, and have no plans to do. It's simply that Uncanny dodge being broken is a pretty substantial bug if we're saying we're playing a 3.5e based game.

Zelk, correct me if I'm wrong though; I realize 20% say for dex 18 is roughly +4 in terms of d20 increments translating into 5% each, but intuitively 20% concealment doesn't seem to quite work out to the same degree of benefit as getting +4 dex to ac. If a +1 ab goblin wants to hit a chain shirt dude with dex 18 he needs a 17, a single roll with 20% chance of success. If he needs to hit a chain shirt dude with no dex bonus but 20% concealment he rolls a fairly easy roll with 80% chance of success, followed by a second roll to hit ac14 (roll of 13) which = 40% chance of success. I'm not sure about the math so i could be way off, but I like my odds with the second scenerio better than the first; 80% is an easy roll, and 40% obviously is significantly easier than 20%; does the fact you have to roll twice actually make them equivalent? Intuitively, it seems easier to make an easy jump, followed by a not so easy jump, rather than make one really, really difficult jump.

With higher AB it's a totally different ball game; eventually when AB starts to outpace AC (is it inevitably does) concealment becomes more powerful, as it doesn't give one whit what the attacker's AB is, you still get the same chance to whiff, while AC eventually becomes laughable to attackers with respectable AB. Would I be wrong in guestimating that at lower lvls the concealment is possibly weaker than retaining the dex bonus, while at higher lvls it's more powerful? So perhaps it balances out in the end, al beit on a different curve than a more exact fix (which at this point seems impossible), or is even slightly underpowered due to ALFA's curve leaning towards lower lvls. Or maybe my guess is way off; I've never extensively studied math that pertains to averages, etc.

Regardless, worth testing, worth trying imo. Anything's better than what it is currently.

[Regalis]

Enough have most assuredly not been said, but as with most any debate in ALFA there is very little point in continuing the debate. Facts are about as important here as they are in a Sarah Palin stump speech.

[Zelknolf]

The answer to your post, Ithildur, is contained here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy



The answer to your post, Regalis, is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi

[Regalis]

Speaking of gamblers and fallacies, how dare you!

You left out my earlier appeal to authority. I had a trifecta.

[hollyfant]

Regardless... do we have an HDM willing to test this out under "battle conditions"? The theory looks sound, but theories only go so far...

[Zelknolf]

This is still in brainstorming, Holly. The plan was to get feedback on the theory (which I did!) so that a more refined proposal could be put together. And there are a couple of genuinely-useful posts. So yay for that.

[NickD]

Speaking of combat performance hits, does XP still get stored in the DB for every character every time they get XP? That's the real bull in the china shop in terms of combat performance hits.

[Zelknolf]

... really? You weren't even trying to keep that one on topic.


Can a moderator please lock this thread? I think it has run its course.

[NickD]

I was going for trying to point out that there are certainly changes that can be made to improve performance more so than your changes would degrade it. In some cases, significantly so.

Meh.

[Regalis]

I hope you will post the code for us when you've finished.

I should probably add why I want to see it.

There are 3 times in NWN2 that we know for sure the bonus needs to be applied:

1. Before the dodger's initiative has come up in the first round of combat
2. When they have been knocked down
3. When they are attacked by an invisible creature

It's number 3 that interests me because it might very well hold the key to an invisibility fix.

[Zelknolf]

And y'all wonder why tech people burn out so fast.

I don't think I'm going to be working on this. I can get more done with less B.S. elsewhere -- if someone else would like to take up the project, it is effectively orphaned.

[Ithildur]

The answer to your post, Ithildur, is contained here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy



The answer to your post, Regalis, is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi

*runs away from the math wiki article, shaking his fist*

[Dorn]

Ok.

So everyone poo-pooed Zelks idea or made it too painful.

Did anyone come up with an alternative?

My suggestions (as somoene who knows nothing about scripting and/or the full ange of feats/skills) are to give UD players one of:
- +1 natural armor token (or Armour skin feat?)
- Mobility (although not having dodge could cause problems?)
- Toughness (maybe a touch more durable to hits that wouldnt connect if UD worked)
- Dodge (not uncanny..but ah well)
- Bring award of improved uncanny dodge forward one level to make up for absence of UD.
- a skill focus of their choice (ok that's just a bit random, tumble maybe?)
- rush (just becasue i want it and i dont get why it's banned)
- +10 tumble
- skill focus:initiative

And none of them are as unfair/over-powered as the cleric domains so lets not use that argument.

Positive alternaties more welcome than nay-sayers with little to contribute.

PS - and stop talking it up just for rogues. Barbs get UD at level2 not much else useful things until about level 5.