Uncanny Dodge Fix

Ideas and suggestions for game mechanics and rules.
Zelknolf
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:04 pm

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Zelknolf »

If we're going to get into variations of "flat +AC for all," then we're also getting into the territory of "equal workload to just write the workaround that has a far more faithful reproduction of the ability's effects."
t-ice
Dungeon Master
Posts: 2106
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by t-ice »

And here we go another round ...

Perhaps you could save us from keeping on dancing in circles around the subject, Zelk, and say you can and will script a pretty good workround, i.e. #3? There's dozens things we could do, but apparently at the end of the day, a property to have UD do at least about what UD should do, is the only one that makes enough sense.
Veilan
Lead Admin
Posts: 6148
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:33 pm
Location: UTC+1
Contact:

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Veilan »

If the problem really is barbarians, then we should simply not give it to them, instead of dealing with another script-around for armour types or the like. Hit point bags with medium armour and damage reduction or outright heavy armour do stand quite a few rungs higher on the ALFA fodder ladder than rogues as it is, so I do not see a big problem with that.

Cheers,
The power of concealment lies in revelation.
User avatar
DMyles
Dire Badger
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:20 am

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by DMyles »

Just giving everyone improved instead would also be a decent option. Those who get uncanny twice and would have improved anyway if the stupid thing wasn't busted could get a bonus feat of the players choosing.
"As the fletcher whittles and makes straight his arrows, so the master directs his straying thoughts."
-The Buddha
User avatar
Adanu
Head Dungeon Master
Posts: 1640
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:52 am

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Adanu »

Veilan wrote:If the problem really is barbarians, then we should simply not give it to them, instead of dealing with another script-around for armour types or the like. Hit point bags with medium armour and damage reduction or outright heavy armour do stand quite a few rungs higher on the ALFA fodder ladder than rogues as it is, so I do not see a big problem with that.

Cheers,
I'm sure clerics would appreciate not being able to cast shields before a fight.
First Character: Zyrus Meynolt, the serene Water Genasi berserker. "I am the embodiment of the oceans; serene until you summon the storm." Zyrus: http://tinyurl.com/9emdbnd

Second Character: Damien Collins, the atypical druid. "What? Being a stick in the mud is boring. No pun intended grins"

Western Heartlands HDM: On break. PM for emergencies
User avatar
oldgrayrogue
Retired
Posts: 3284
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:09 am
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by oldgrayrogue »

Veilan wrote:If the problem really is barbarians, then we should simply not give it to them, instead of dealing with another script-around for armour types or the like. Hit point bags with medium armour and damage reduction or outright heavy armour do stand quite a few rungs higher on the ALFA fodder ladder than rogues as it is, so I do not see a big problem with that.

Cheers,

Then improve rogues, don't nerf barbs. Cleric is without a doubt the most uber class in ALFA, they have AC, AB, HP, free healing, offensive and defensive spells, buffs etc etc. Should we nerf them too? No. Lets just fix the barb if we can.
User avatar
Adanu
Head Dungeon Master
Posts: 1640
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:52 am

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Adanu »

oldgrayrogue wrote:
Veilan wrote:If the problem really is barbarians, then we should simply not give it to them, instead of dealing with another script-around for armour types or the like. Hit point bags with medium armour and damage reduction or outright heavy armour do stand quite a few rungs higher on the ALFA fodder ladder than rogues as it is, so I do not see a big problem with that.

Cheers,

Then improve rogues, don't nerf barbs. Cleric is without a doubt the most uber class in ALFA, they have AC, AB, HP, free healing, offensive and defensive spells, buffs etc etc. Should we nerf them too? No. Lets just fix the barb if we can.
This.

Barbarians and fighters are already screwed just by game balance, adding to it would just be rubbing salt in the wound.
First Character: Zyrus Meynolt, the serene Water Genasi berserker. "I am the embodiment of the oceans; serene until you summon the storm." Zyrus: http://tinyurl.com/9emdbnd

Second Character: Damien Collins, the atypical druid. "What? Being a stick in the mud is boring. No pun intended grins"

Western Heartlands HDM: On break. PM for emergencies
Veilan
Lead Admin
Posts: 6148
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:33 pm
Location: UTC+1
Contact:

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Veilan »

oldgrayrogue wrote:Then improve rogues, don't nerf barbs.
Adanu wrote:This.
I am glad you both seem to agree to my suggestion then, which was to buff rogues, but not barbs, with the "armour skin" feat.
The power of concealment lies in revelation.
User avatar
Blindhamsterman
Haste Bear
Posts: 2396
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:13 am
Location: GMT

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Blindhamsterman »

seeing as Zelknolf offered to make a close to pnp equivilant... all this seems rather pointless, just give her the go ahead already? if Rogues get a fix for UD, then Barbarians should also. There should be no ifs or buts... simple fact is, the class gets the ability, it should get the same fix Rogue does.
Standards Member


Current PC: Elenaril Avae'Kerym of the Lynx Lodge
<Heero>: yeah for every pc ronan has killed dming, paazin has killed 2 with his spawns
Veilan
Lead Admin
Posts: 6148
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:33 pm
Location: UTC+1
Contact:

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Veilan »

Zelk's workaround however is not near as easily implemented, is unintuitive for most "normal" players, and uses effects that are not at all PnPy to simulate a close approximation of the effect, as I understood it (I could be mistaken, naturally). I am just not sure it stands a reasonable chance of implementation, though obviously everyone, including me, would have to agree: simply getting uncanny dodge to work as intended, for everyone, would be best.

But let's not continue to make the perfect the enemy of the good - let's not restart this discussion in the next merry-go-round in continuing circles of the same old points discussed ad infinitum. I do realise this is not a fix / buff to clerics or other primary casters, but that should heighten its priority given ALFA's current state of affairs.

Buff the most severely hit guys by this some, it being understood it gets taken back when we get a proper fix... instead of continuing this current nerf to everyone due to envy and chasing of dream solutions. And as you remember, it wasn't even me who brought up barbarians, I just offered a solution in case it really bugs people that much that some armoured, DR'ed hit point bag gains another point of AC.

Actually, I find the misrepresentation and hostility that stands in the way of factual analysis here quite tiresome, I guess there's a reason the Standards boards exist :?.

Anyway, different solution could be to make a barb class level requirement, but I'm actually not too worried since you have to take 2 levels of barbarians to get the feat already anyway, and can't just single-dip into it.

Cheers,
The power of concealment lies in revelation.
User avatar
Brokenbone
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 5771
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 1:07 am
Location: London, Ontario, Canada

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Brokenbone »

Frankly I like the sound of Z's proposal from the initial post. It ties to flat footedness, and "something wonderful happening" quite briefly. You could even call it uncanny.

The known shortcoming seems to mainly be that "sometimes this wonderful thing will slightly outlast flat-footedness", but not by long, and if there's more than one flat footed event in a somewhat long encounter (a "second wave"), it might be slow to kick in, if I read the outlook right.

Flat footedness is the very temporary state, the PnP idea is "hey, you don't lose your Dex bonus at that point, you are from a class who probably treasures this Dex bonus after all." Apparently we cannot preserve that Dex bonus, but a very temporary "lucky break" during that period of some small amount of concealment, i.e., "wow am I ever uncannily lucky, that first blow sailed right by me" is an interesting alternative. A lot more interesting than "+1 armor all the time."

I am not clear by any stretch where those 4-5 lines of code from the OP would go (other than "someplace in the haks"), whether they perform as advertised is a topic more for testing.

I suspect we do know what +1 epic armor skin would look like without testing. We also know what broken uncanny dodge looks like without testing (i.e., "nothing happens").

DMA could "authorize a test", with fallback of +1 armor skin if the results are unsatisfactory, incurably so, etc.
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack

DMA Staff
Veilan
Lead Admin
Posts: 6148
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:33 pm
Location: UTC+1
Contact:

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Veilan »

So...

we all agree some compensation / fix should be given, we just don't agree on the path to be taken.

Polling time?
The power of concealment lies in revelation.
User avatar
hollyfant
Staff Head on a Pike - Standards
Posts: 3481
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:33 pm
Location: the Netherworl... lands! I meant the Netherlands.

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by hollyfant »

Either an executive decision, or a vote. But who will we be asking?
User avatar
DMyles
Dire Badger
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:20 am

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by DMyles »

here is the list of classes that get uncanny dodge as a bonus feat

Rouge 4
Barb 2
Cleric with air domain 1
Assassin 2
Dwarven defender 2
Shadowdancer 2
shadow thief 2
scared fist 2
"As the fletcher whittles and makes straight his arrows, so the master directs his straying thoughts."
-The Buddha
User avatar
oldgrayrogue
Retired
Posts: 3284
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:09 am
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by oldgrayrogue »

Just give Zelk the green light already
Locked