Uncanny Dodge Fix

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hollyfant
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by hollyfant »

PA, DMA, TA... probably Lead too, though that might create an undesirable precedent.
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Veilan »

hollyfant wrote:PA, DMA, TA... probably Lead too, though that might create an undesirable precedent.
Lead just gets to decide who gets to decide if people can't agree on it ;).
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Vendrin
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Vendrin »

No objections to this being implemented.
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Curmudgeon »

What, exactly, are we being asked to approve? I gave up counting the different options just going back a couple of pages.

Yes, it needs fixing. What fix is being proposed?
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Zelknolf »

Three fixes on the table:
1. Nuts to what uncanny dodge says. Make it +1 AC all the time
Pro: It's easy to do, and can be implemented speedily.
Con: Significantly more powerful than uncanny dodge.

2. Nuts to what uncanny dodge says. Make it a bonus feat.
Pro: ... is there one?
Con: Significantly more powerful than uncanny dodge.

or

3. Nuts to hard-coded problems; script a workaround.
Pro: It will be statistically extremely similar to (improved) uncanny dodge.
Con: It will make combat logs harder to read (as we can't add a dodge bonus to a flat-footed character and have it work)

All would have to roll out with a hak update. Fix #1 could potentially have a hacked-in workaround pushed to the modules in the interim, but doing so comes with the cost of making the actual hak update more complex and more error prone.
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by DMyles »

Seemed to me the general consensus of the thread was a fix if possible and not overly difficult.

If that isn't possible a plus 1 ac bonus implemented as armor skin +1 unused epic feat so that it stacks with everything. Dodge AC bonus would also stack with everything but the player would lose it if flat footed which is just what uncanny dodge is supposed to help with.

I threw out there the idea of a bonus feat at the end, but that was probably a bad idea. Not that it wouldn't be fair, just no need to muddy the waters if people are mostly in agreement.
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Veilan »

Zelknolf wrote:Three fixes on the table:
1. Nuts to what uncanny dodge says. Make it +1 AC all the time
Pro: It's easy to do, and can be implemented speedily.
Con: Significantly more powerful than uncanny dodge.
While I have nothing against this "fix", I think to state it being more powerful is not entirely accurate - armour skin may be more powerful in a straight melee duel (which most rogues don't exactly excel in), and it is also more powerful for people who just dipped into uncanny dodge from some class feature, but maintain wearing heavy armour (and those do not need a buff at all). But the real bummer is losing the big chunk of your AC in those situations where you need it. Uncanny dodge is an almost necessary feature to make dex-based characters viable in combat, and I think the kind of classes and builds that uncanny dodge is intended for would pick it over a +1 blanket AC. Then again, NWN 2 is a bit more forgiving about "flat footedness" than NWN 1, where you could drop to flat-footed mid-combat.

Anyway, that irks me the most about the feat - it is more powerful when uncanny dodge should not do anything, and it does very little when uncanny dodge should kick in with full swing. It also benefits those who should benefit the most from uncanny dodge relatively the least. But, it's a reasonable boon to show roguish types that we are not only favouring primary casters massively, or big hunks in full plate (or those combining these two attributes :?).

I think the biggest draw for this "fix" is that it is seemingly far more simple to implement and understand than tinkering around with an additional system of resolving hits.

And in any case, I believe we all agree that this feat will be gone once we have an option to implement a proper fix.

So, let us all rally behind #1 to at least get something done? ;)

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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Brokenbone »

I like Veilan's analysis / argument, but do note barbs get uncanny dodge and since heavy armor means feat, or level dip, or maybe deactivating some barb abilities, straight extra AC is high value. But hey, if plain uncanny dodge is busted, couple classes have been shafted awhile and some band-aid is good. Go for it!
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Zelknolf »

But the real bummer is losing the big chunk of your AC in those situations where you need it.
While this bears much truthiness, it does not stand up to mathematical analysis.

AC is more valuable the more you have, in that the reduced incoming damage relative to the previous AC is typically greater (i.e. the difference between needing a 13 and a 14 to hit is a 12.5% reduction in incoming damage, but the difference between needing a 17 and an 18 is a 25% reduction in incoming damage-- the difference peaks at 50%, when you get the point of AC that forces your opponent to roll a 20-- before decreasing [only being valuable when flanked or debuffed])

Compare, then, to the state of flat-footedness (lasting one flurry) and the state of +1 omnistacking AC (lasting forever and ever amen). The net reduction of incoming damage is thus consistently significantly higher in use of armor skin compared to uncanny dodge-- even for heavy armor barb/fighters (for whom the distinction between uncanny dodge and armor skin is greater).
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by AcadiusLost »

Would the proposed flat +1 AC proposal take into account type of armor worn, or DEX bonus, before being applied?

At it's heart, Uncanny Dodge is supposed to help make DEX-based lighter armor types more survivable (specifically in conditions where the critical dex bonus might otherwise be denied)... it strikes me that a flat +1 AC may end up benefiting multiclass characters in heavy armor, who may even lack sufficient dexterity bonus to benefit from the PnP version of the feat. If we're OK with that, so be it; but it might be worth considering.

(I believe our dwarf group includes two multi-classed barbs with UD and full plate, as well as a high-dex multiclassed rogue with UD and light armor, for example. )
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by t-ice »

Like Zelk's analysis points out, a blanket +1AC would mostly benefit (heavy armor) tanks that have multiclassed to barb or rog. And dwarven defenders. It's something to give instead of UD, but as noted it really goes contrary to what it's supposed to do and whom to benefit.

To keep the conversation going ( :P ), how about a replacement feat from the rogue bonus feat list instead: Defensive Roll. While it doesn't key to dex bonus to AC, it benefits slippery people as opposed to heavy tanks (it needs reflex save), and it's a defensive ability. Given that defensive roll, too, will be negated by the very conditions when UD should work, being downed below 0hp while flat-footed would seem rare enough that it doesn't really matter.

Defensive roll certainly doesn't do much for barbs, but they get to keep their extra speed in heavy armor. (And is there even one barb without heavy armor profs?)
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Brokenbone »

Zelk's summary of options, the best one sounds like 3, but the easiest sounds like 1. Find anyone in the world with UD, strip it, give AS. I've seen it done with illegal items in like, some kind of module on enter script (smell a certain resref, steal it and give back a nerfed version with a different resref)... I have to assume it can be done with feats as well.

I am not sure if the Option 3 is really the "concealment" workaround of over 6 months ago that kicked off the thread... which provoked a lot of anxiety from some posters about "server load" etc., not that I know a thing about the topic, though I always assume things like testing will bear out whether there was a reason to be anxious or not.

To AL's post, Option 1 is inelegant and it does perhaps disproportionately favour toe-to-toe brawlers who may even have a terrible Dex (whether by build, by status effect or whatever), but gotta remember that the status quo is "broken." Having something would be good. Whether this is the right something, don't know (Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, or maybe other flighty/dodgey stuff would be good, but it could also mean rebuilding if people already took those things by choice, which an Epic feat like AS, it'd be impossible that "I already got one!").

I assume that any fix can also be temporary. Here's the band aid while a better solution is worked on.

It's been 8 months this thread has been around, it's too bad that "something, anything" gets held up this long. Good choices are to be encouraged, bad choices are to be avoided, but hey, "make a choice."

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Postscript since I see T-Ice's post popped up while posting... like I said with Imp Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, I guess Defensive Roll is "another defensive themed prereq", I have never seen it in action in NWN2, but the idea is, maybe a hit that would've taken you below 0hp instead you can "save for half" (Reflex). This is pretty cool. NWN2 wikia though indicates "she no work when flat footed", not sure if that brings us back to square one, or if it can be looked at from the perspective that hey, you don't get UD at the start of combat, but maybe you get Def. Roll "to avoid an untimely end", escaping death etc. If you make a reflex save that is, which Dex-monkeys and those who've devoted themselves to a high Reflex save class (as opposed to level dippers who may be less into Reflex) may be able to benefit from most. Not saying I advocate this route, it's a really powerful feat, +1 nat armor to me is really just "I could get that for 2000gp as an amulet (excepting the omnistackability), so not a very sexy feat."
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by DMyles »

it is a decent point about thieves benifitting the least from the +1 armor skin. How about something that gives them a +2 that only works with light armor, or a plus +1 that works with medium for multyclass.

I actually have a cleric that gets uncanny dodge from air domain as a bonus feat. I would be more then happy with gust of wind as a bonus spell instead, if uncanny dodge can't be made to work right. Not an overly useful or powerful spell but plenty of rp revelance for a cleric with air domain.
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Creslyn
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by Creslyn »

It wouldn't be particularly difficult to limit the +1ac from armor skin to those wearing light or no armor, avoiding FP wearing multiclasses benefitting from it. A simple onequip/unequip check could apply/remove the feat for those who qualify.
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Re: Uncanny Dodge Fix

Post by boombrakh »

Creslyn wrote:It wouldn't be particularly difficult to limit the +1ac from armor skin to those wearing light or no armor, avoiding FP wearing multiclasses benefitting from it. A simple onequip/unequip check could apply/remove the feat for those who qualify.
That right there, is post #190000! Congrats Creslyn!

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