Variant Classes

[mogonk]

Those of you who played AD&D will remember class kits. The rest of you will at least remember Baldur's Gate II...right? Are we all clear on that concept? Good. Unearthed Arcana has a number of Variant Classes which function based on a very similar principle: that there are certain members of a given class who train or specialize differently than most, and that this should be represented in the mechanics.

What I propose is that we add one variant for all of the core base classes. I have tried to choose the ones that require the least work, create the most variety, and maintain balance. Some of them are lifted straight from the book, some needed tweaking because they dealt with class features that don't exist in NWN2. Others I just pulled out of my ass. Most of the titles I stole from UA, some I chose off the top of my head, meaning that they're probably pretty lame. I welcome suggestions.

Fighter - Thug
Loses medium/heavy armor proficiency. Gains 4+Int mod skill pts per level, Bluff, Gather Info, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand are considered in class skills.

Rogue - Commando
Loses sneak attack. Gains bonus feats as a fighter of equal level.

Druid - Feral Druid
Loses Wild Shape. Loses all armor and shield proficiency. Gain unarmored AC bonus (including Wis mod) and fast movement as a monk of equal level. Gains Track as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Cleric - Cloistered Cleric
Loses medium/heavy armor proficiency. Uses wizard AB. Gains 6+Int mod skill pts. per level. Gains Knowledge (all) as in class skills. Gains the Knowledge domain as a bonus domain.

Wizard - Martial Caster
Loses scribe scroll and all bonus wizard feats. Gains feats from the fighter bonus feat list at lvls 1,5,10,15, and 20.

Sorcerer - Wild Sorcerer
Loses familiar. Gains animal companion as Druid of 1/2 class level. Loses Bluff as a class skill, gains Survival.

Ranger - Urban Ranger
Loses Track feat, gains Skill Focus (Gather Information) instead. Loses Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker and Camouflage. Can only choose small or medium animals as animal companions. Loses those spells such as entangle that relate to natural surroundings, gains all bard spells except those directly related to bardic music as additions to his spell list. Gains Hide in Plain Sight as Shadowdancer (usable in any environment) at lvl 13.

Paladin - Undead Hunter
Loses Lay on Hands and Remove Disease. Gains Favored Enemy as a Ranger of equal level, but the only enemy type it applies to is undead. Gains Divine Vengeance as a bonus feat at 6th level.

Bard - Skald (very appropriate for Moonshaes)
Loses good will save. Gains good fort save. Loses Bardic Knowledge. Loses all spellcasting. Gains rage as a barbarian of equal level. Gains martial weapon proficiency.

Monk - none of the ones in UA are very good, and I can't think of anything right now.

So. What do you think?

[Mick]

I shudder thinking of the number of discussions regarding balance that would be generated from trying to implement such a thing, much less the tech work involved. That said, if people want to do the work, it doesn't break the engine any more than it is, and the populace is in favor of it, then knock yourself out.

Unnecessary, in my opinion.

[mogonk]

I shudder thinking of the number of discussions regarding balance that would be generated from trying to implement such a thing, much less the tech work involved.

I made the exact same point regarding the addition of PrCs, but apparently some people are chomping at the bit looking for new class options to add. If we are going to add content of that type, it seems to me that variant classes would have a broader benefit than narrow PrCs, in that more people would be in a position to take advantage of them.

Unnecessary, in my opinion.

Yes, completely unnecessary. That's not your opinion, that's a fact.

[Blindhamsterman]

if we want to add more base classes, i'd be more in favour of adding completely new ones.

some notes though.
A few of the abilities (martial Caster for one) are pretty much impossible using the nwn2 engine.

many of the suggestions are horribly inbalanced, one direction or the other.

Finally, Does anyone actually wish to USE any of these? The reasoning behind some of the PRCs is there is/was a demand for certain classes, making the work on a PRC not a waste. However we've not had folk biting at the bit for Unearthed Arcana classes before, so perhaps this isn't the case with these? (or maybe it is, and this thread will show it)

[mogonk]

OK. I'm surprised that martial caster isn't possible. What makes it impossible, the adding of bonus feats or the subtracting of the existing wizard feats?

Many of the variants are overall weaker than the base class. So in that sense they are unbalanced. I don't see that as being a problem. They all have something that they do better than the base class, and fill a niche. Cloistered cleric is a great example. It's MUCH weaker than a standard cleric. I can still see people taking it. Sounds like a lot of fun to me.

Underpowered but still usable doesn't pose balance concerns. Now, if there are any that you think are overpowered, I'd be interested to know which ones, and why. It's hard to address that without some specifics.

I think a large part of the reason there hasn't been much expressed desire for the variant classes is that most people don't think about Unearthed Arcana much. It's a fairly obscure book, doesn't see much use in most PnP games. And nothing in it is canon (to the extent that mechanics can be canon, but that's another issue). I know at least one person who would take Thug over the vanilla fighter class. If I were rolling a new character, I would think hard about playing a Feral Druid of Malar. Beyond that, I can't say.

[Blindhamsterman]

Thinking on the subject of martial caster, it would be possible as the class is a base class, not a PRC. It would however require it's own seperate Class from the classes.2da, which may or may not be an issue (i'd say probably not myself).

Thug actually gains sneak attack as well in UA, which makes for a rather powerful class (sneak attack every other level +full bab), on the other hand I believe it also loses proficiency of everything other than rogue weapons.

Cloistered Cleric... yes its weaker than a normal cleric in combat (barely as it only loses some AB and some armour profs which aren't always an issue anyway.) But it's far from underpowered, it's essentially a wizard with a different (but just as good, better in some cases) spell list, more hp, casting in light armour, more skills... etc etc.

Wild Sorcerer gets a combat companion, yes its not as good as a druids, but having a 'tank' companion with you always as a blaster sorcerer is pretty powerful.

Urban Ranger is pretty balanced.

Skald is quite good fun, though i think the UA version keeps its spellcasting, instead just losing certain spells?

Monk... actually doing the monk ones would be easy, instead of their 2da files giving them set feats, give them bonus feats from a list, which contains the options from UA, simple and pretty balanced.

Paladin, yeah this one isn't too powerful in a PW, as the damage bonus of FE doesn't work on undead (same as sneak attack doesn't). No idea what divine vengence does.

Feral Druid is alright I guess, it loses a little, in defence, but has that replaced with something different, and loses its best ability (wild shape) to get a speed boost. Don't see this one as powerful at all.

Rogue- commando.... Thats silly... sneak attack is powerful yes, but giving a class the ONLY benefit a fighter really has over an NPC warrior, at the same rate as a fighter while retaining all it's other stuff... is a bit of a joke. It'd need to lose skill points or more abilities too...


UA is a fun book, lots of cool ideas, ALFA would probably benefit a great deal from the 'generic' classes I mentioned in the other thread as a replacement for every class, but it won't happen. The Racial Paragon Classes are also a fun concept, perhaps available in place of a PRC, it might work? Then from other books there are other base classes, ninja, samuri etc etc...

But I actually think with some tweeks the variant classes from UA might not be a bad addition. (as it all but doubles the number of base classes)

[mogonk]

Well, keep in mind that some of these are actually from UA, and some are inspired by UA. Skald, for example, isn't in there at all. It's something I cobbled together from the old Skald kit in 2nd edition and a few different bard variants in UA.

Thug has two versions in UA, one that I listed above, and the other, which is just a fighter with sneak attack in place of bonus feats, which is kinda silly imo. Sneak attack...but no hide. Right. I like this one better.

Divine Vengeance lets you burn a turn undead attempt to gain 2d6 bonus dmg vs. undead for one round. I chose lvl 6 because that's when a normal paladin would get cure disease. I kinda feel like this one might need something more...maybe detect undead as a spell like ability? At will or limited use per day?

You're right about Wild Sorcerer. Ok, what if spells known was reduced by one for all spell levels, and they get animal comapanion as a druid of equal level, instead of half? Reducing a sorcerer's spells known is crippling, so that would seem to be adequate compensation.

I see your point on the rogue variant. Maybe reduce the feats to one every 3 levels starting on 1? So 1,4,7,10,13,16,19.

[Blindhamsterman]

if you can persuade the powers that be to consider implementing such things, then, just like with PRCs, I'll happily do the work (in the case of these varient classes, it's mostly very easy anyway).

I doubt they'll get considered till batch one of the PRCs go in, but you never know. I'd suggest bringing your ideas forward to the folk in Admin, if you'd like to see them go in.

if the desire for new Base classes was there, the ones we don't have are:

Hexblade
Samuri
Knight
Beguiler
Duskblade
War Mage
Wu Jen
Ninja
Scout
Spellthief

a few of the above are already made by various authors on the vault, most aren't and would require a fair bit of work, Duskblade would fit T-Ice's suggestion of a warrior with some spellcasting ability pretty well, and i know of at least one person in Admin that'd like to see it in.
Ninja, samuri and scout are all available on the vault, making them good suggestions for new base classes if base classes are what folk want.

[Adanu]

Duskblade is something that I would consider if it is put in. Variety is always nice.

[t-ice]

If the variants are balanced, and someone wants to add them, then sure, why not.

One thing to consider with variants is that if implemented, they'd probably each be a base class of their own. That means it's possible to multiclass with them, and also at least mechanistically to take several variants of the same class. (So, every fighter would turn fig1+thugN) This makes balancing tricky at best.

As for additional base classes, I'd rather see PrCs that de-gimp combos of existing classes in a balanced manner than more specific ground-up paths for the same effects. For example, comparing the options of {fig,barb,ranger,swashb}/{wiz,sorc}/spellsword to warmage or duskblade, the former obviously seems far more bang of RP path options for the buck of creating a class. The trick is to keep the PrC generic. Given that this goes against the PnP intent of PrC, it's far better suited to the PW environment, where we have a handful of classes instead of the hundreds in 3.5 sources, and no single DM to keep balance.

[Brokenbone]

I was thinking to myself "Thug sounds awesome for a thieves' guild campaign", but then curbed my excitement and said "so is going Fighter/Rogue." Yes, it's wonderful to have a HARD restriction on no medium or heavy armor for a tough guy enforcer Thug, but in true thieves' guild campaigns, it's not often you'd see a fighter/rogue not going stealthy-styles, and eschewing heavy armor except in maybe the weirdest field situations (like posing as a soldier and wearing some second hand plate armor, knowing stealth isn't going to be possible while doing that scene). Fighter/rogue is already a very attractive combo for getting all kinds of feats, plus even if you stop at just the lowest level of sneak attack (Fighter 10, Rogue 1), getting that little extra "zing" of flanking possible damage is something I've found commonplace... and possibly dumping all points for a non-stealth build into things like UMD.

Again, the ideas sound nifty in their way, and actually much, much more appealing than PrCs for the "few, the proud, the high level" (since you could be a Thug or Cloister Guy from level 1), and I suppose occasionally it'd be interesting to see ALFA being the groundbreaker, as opposed to examining Kaedrin's PRC pack and wringing hands about how much or how little to adopt. Everyone "out there" knows PrCs, few people (me included) have dove into Unearthed Arcana stuff!

[JaydeMoon]

All this talk of additional classes... I think the classes should be:

Fighter
Mage
Thief
Cleric
Elf
Dwarf
and Halfling

Red Box RULZ!

[Blindhamsterman]

All this talk of additional classes... I think the classes should be:

Fighter
Mage
Thief
Cleric
Elf
Dwarf
and Halfling

Red Box RULZ!

the above would be pretty awesome.... I want my old school Elf back...

[ElCadaver]

I say yes

[NickD]

I'd call the Mage class "Magic User". Because that says it all, really.

Otherwise, I'd be keen on whirling frenzy over standard rage for my barbarian... but that's not an alternative class, more an alternative ability.