Critters giving no XP

[Keryn]

Hello ALFAns, this is a sensitive topic, but one I believe i truly essential, and that should have been discussed before IMO.

I'm not really sure how to word this properly so I hope I can make my idea as clear as possible, in order to be able to get my message to you all.

I feel we have been facing one issues, which is masked by our claim that ALFA is a hardcore RP server, in all fairness it is, but that has nothing to do with currently the server being like a chess "table without opponent pieces", and what do I mean with this?

Well I cannot chime in regarding the tech side of things and I'm sure AL will eventually add in some info regarding it, but as we stand our spawns have decreased in number until the point we stand now, with long long respawn times, few spawns and few places to adventure in, when a player logs it is quite often to walk around in a pretty much empty world. This happens because as the server restarts most of the spawns go down fairly quickly, and since they take so much to respawn, we end up having nothing to offer to many other players that log in to play have fun and adventure, leaving ALFA a table for a perfect DM session, but hardly attractive as a PW, unless you play DnD to focus in the tavern RP alone. But then again there is a nice café in the corner we could most likely sit there we our friends instead of doing it virtually...

All in all, I think the game is about adventure, action, heroic deeds, or the attempt to achieve them, and I have the perception the reason we removed the spawns and are so afraid of having more of them is because we fear they will be farmed over and over. Which still happens today... When a PC takes a stroll over the whole server starting in RM and ending in Silvy taking al the caves in between, thats just that... And our nerfed attitude towards spawns didn't solve this issue just made sure those who do it don't get so much out of it, and those who don't are virtually unable to go out and have some legit fun.

I think we need a different attitude towards this... I still remember a system back in Nwn1 where the first time you killed a spawn he awarded you a number of XP, and as you killed more and more it would award less and less independent of your lvl. What this means is... the farming dude, will kill as many orcs as he wishes but we know he will never get more then X from the orc critter. This ends up putting an end in this desire to farm it won't take them anywhere... and would allow us to have more spawns probably, without the fear we seem to have nowdays. Virtually reaching the point people can go out and kill critter not for the XP they give, because they will stop giving XP at some point, but for the fun of it, for the adventure, for the social act, for the game in the end. I make reference tot his system because i know it, Im sure there are other brilliant ideas out there and maybe we should discuss them. Most likely there are some setbacks in this system Im not aware of and Im sure they will be pointed out.

But currently as we are... it a risky path we trail. Each time I receive a tell from a player stating how ridiculous it is to log in and not being able to even kill a kobold with his party because all the spawns were removed, I start thinking what else is there to be done, other then enjoy the landscape... and make up RP, chit chat, and eventually log out.

Dungeons and Dragons needs the action, and the RP, and currently, we seem to provide the RP, but lack in the action that stimulates a player to log in. This is visible.. whenever a DM pops in the server suddenly get alive, why? It isnt JUST for the chance of being DMed... it is also for the chance of seeing some action... doing something. Even if just watch in the end of the group because you can't help much.

Ideas?

Forgive me the rant..

[oldgrayrogue]

If people are logging in and with regularity farming out every cave in a circuit from Silverymoon to Rivermoot I would like to know about it. If its you please send me a PM so we can chat.

[oldgrayrogue]

Now to the topic.

As far as I know, there has been no tech decrease in the spawns to deter farming. Explaining how our spawns work would be a bit meta I'm afraid so I will refrain from doing so. I will state that I noticed similar "emptiness" recently and looked into it on Admin side. As far as I know everything is working as intended, but I will have another look. I agree with the OP that in a PW there should be opportunity for adventure. That said, players should not expect to find the same goblins or orcs etc to slaughter in the same caves every time they enter.

The OP seems to be suggesting a scripted diminishing returns system for XP from spawns. Frankly, given the amount of XP awarded for most spawns once you reach a certain level I doubt anyone is farming spawns for the XP. If it is occurring I am guessing it is for the loot. If this type of play by a few is in actuality "emptying the server" to the reduced enjoyment of all other players then I will be looking in to it, and conducting an investigation as to any rules violations. The persistent content is on the server for everyone to enjoy, not just a few players who may or may not be doing what the OP suggests.

[oldgrayrogue]

I also want to take this opportunity to remind all players of this Rule:

2.6.2 Farming
Farming is repeatedly killing the same static spawns or going through the same static quests with no legitimate IC motivation. Note that a character that "hates orcs" does not have a legitimate excuse for farming orc spawn points.

Example: (1) A character who returns to the same spawn point every day to kill the mobs spawned there.

[Mick]

I'm certain that the diminishing xp for killing more than one of a certain type of creature is in effect. In fact, I would say it is working too well.

Back when I had a PC who could actually fight trolls, when she did manage to kill one she was getting 3xp for them.

3xp.

...for a troll.

Hope this gets reviewed along with the aforementioned issue.

Oh, on a loosely related note...there is no canon rat (dire, were or otherwise) that has a +8 AB and over 30hp. Please remove them from the mod or allow them to drop the suits of armor and weapons lodged in their lower intestinal tracts from the adventurers they have swallowed whole.

Apart from that, I love the random tough spawns that show up on server.

[Blindhamsterman]

XP is based of CR of the creature currently... so as you level you get less exp, I don't *think* it decreases for killing more than 1? :S

however the exp rewards for such things have often been critisised over the years, by OGR himself in the past even.

The thing right now seems to be, unless you roll a random encounter on the world map, you wont see any monsters at all... and when you roll a random encounter on the world map it tends to be something pretty nasty, meaning you often still wont see any monster as you're too busy fleeing. If there was some clever way to cause spawns to reset more regularly but have them be potential in more different parts of more areas, that'd be pretty awesome. It'd mean players don't know where they might be but would likely increase your chance of meeting something and getting the good old D&D experience. (even better if the spawns would trigger when someone enters an area that was previously populated, and be based on:
Number of PCs
PC level
PC Class

With the exp reward being based on:
Number of PCs
PC level
Number of that creature a PC has killed

the above is probably way too much work though? I'm not sure?

The reward for certain encounters does often seem a bit off, but I think the xp rewards may actually have gone up at some point, my reasonable level PC gets more xp for trolls than my previous (similar level) PC did...

[Keryn]

This system I spoke about Blind is a compromise, a PW 24/7 online is not and cannot be looked at the same way you reward your PnP group.

So the reward set for a certain CR might work well in theory but fact is, players will find a way to consistently kill it for that XP.

Experience is just that, experience, when you do something you learn with it, until you became a master in what your doing.

If I kill 10 Goblins I most likely learn a few tricks they pull off each time I fought them. But after 100 I doubt they are able to surprise me.. what experience do i retain from it? well according to CR, Y xp, but in reality I doubt he would learn anything from that 100th battle... So instead of getting lets say.

4 XP for each goblin at level 4. Which would mean 100 goblins = 400XP

you'd get

10 for the first and second maybe, then 8 for some few then it gets lower to the cap we think its acceptable in terms of XP to get from a certain spawn. which could very well be those same 400XP at the 100th goblins, just spread differently.

on other hand a lvl 10 PC can fight a rat for the first time and still be surprised by how agile and small the creature is as he moves around, and even if he kills him easily, he probably learned something right there.

Now OOC what this means is we have a pretty clear idea of what XP a PC can get from a a certain type of spawn and if balanced we know it will allow to reach Y lvl at a certain rate which for a PW is better IMO.

My problem is not with our reward system... i think it works and it works well. My problem is with the need we seem to have to have few encounters to make sure XP is not handed like candy...because the more we have the more people will kill/farm... So solution is.. have less. And then we look around and have a nice looking server which is empty. Which means its harder to excite and retain new players... who see no point in walking around like fools to stumble over a troll and die, or do tavern RP all day, based out of nothing... I actually ten to agree with Castano when he says Tavern Rp after a point becomes the legal cheating, where there is nothing about the plot to RP about nor to do but people sit IG and farm the auto XP just because they can, talking about the most ridiculous things. Not saying social RP is a bad thing but it should not be the main focus and certainly not more rewarded then adventuring which is the base of the game we play. When the reward for sitting around far exceeds the one of walking around trying to stumble over something to get some action and fun, theres no point in risking your neck..

With this new system we would know ok John doe wont get more then XXXX from killing Orcs... but we can still have them by the dozens and people can have encounters and still go on adventuring. If John Doe kills orcs and farms them our logs will show it. and we act on it pretty easily. Leveling rates are hard to hide.. so to speak. But even if he gets them faster... he will hit a sort of cap from that monster. I suppose this means its not worth to farm... you'll get the same XP either you do it faster or slower, and you still risk being in troubles for obvious farming.

[Mick]

XP is based of CR of the creature currently... so as you level you get less exp

Absolutely. As it should be. But as I read the CR/XP table in the DMG, the reward should have been 800xp. I think we reduce monster kill xp by a factor of 10 here in ALFA because we say we want RP rewarded and not killing stuff. That is fine and is a principle with which I agree, but by my calculation the 3xp I was getting was a reduction by a factor of 266.

Admittedly, I have not been able to kill a troll in some time, so it is entirely possible this has been fixed. If so, then disregard. If not, please address this.

[Keryn]

BTW ultimately I dont care about the reward system. I just HATE gong around in a house where it seems you have no furniture. And when you try to go out and have fun with a bunch of people theres nothing to do... or to adventure with.

I saw what i thought was the issue and tried to give a possible solution, if there are better solutions, then address them but please, lets try finding a way to make these servers not so.... naked... If I wanted to RP socially alone i'd be in a social RP...

ATM ALFA is a perfect platform to DM campaigns. But not for a PW system IMO, and we see, when a DM logs in players head IG hoping to see some action. Action they cannot seek by their own. Its stunning how happy people get for entering a DM session where they scout and kill a kobold just because there was something to do.

[Blindhamsterman]

I wrote a long, and in depth example of my concept for a spawn system.... but got logged out of the forums when i hit post... losing it

essentially this:

Spawn triggers when a party or individual enters an area that previously had no PCs in it. The power of spawn(s) would be based off of:
Number of PCs in party
Average PC level
maybe PC Class

With the exp reward being based on:
Number of PCs
average PC level
Number of that tyoe of creature a PC has killed (or an average of this if a party)

The system would need a % chance to spawn nothing at all. Maybe just a general % or per area.

These spawns would trigger again next time the area is empty and a new PC/party enters, so long as 4 RL hours (1 IC day) has also passed.

[NESchampion]

I wrote a long, and in depth example of my concept for a spawn system.... but got logged out of the forums when i hit post... losing it

essentially this:

Spawn triggers when a party or individual enters an area that previously had no PCs in it. The power of spawn(s) would be based off of:
Number of PCs in party
Average PC level
maybe PC Class

With the exp reward being based on:
Number of PCs
average PC level
Number of that tyoe of creature a PC has killed (or an average of this if a party)

The system would need a % chance to spawn nothing at all. Maybe just a general % or per area.

These spawns would trigger again next time the area is empty and a new PC/party enters, so long as 4 RL hours (1 IC day) has also passed.

Not a bad idea; another possible thing to help increase spawns without making it easier to farm would be to have patrols increase the chances of triggering an event on the overland map. I'm not sure if this occurs or not, but most of the patrols Turnosh did with others way back in early 2010 met no resistance at all.

[Audark]

I'm always on the side of enforcing our rules through punishing those who break them vs. gimping the game for the rest of us.

That said,I think a lot can be done outside of the static spawns to add some variety to the server. When cloud was DMing she'd set up little encounters and just leave them for people to stumble on, sometimes with a chest with minor loot. It's not a full blown technical solution, but a DM dropping a few random encounters in random areas shouldn't take too long and can add to the feeling the world around us shifts and changes and the same area isn't always full of the same critters.

as for the full tech solution to this, it feels like an immense amount of work to do something technical. If someones farming constantly and you feel it is negatively impacting your game and others, I would flat out mention it to them, ask them to stop, indicate their error so they have a chance to act differently and only then involve the laborious complaints process in alfa. Sometimes things can be solved with a warning or a threat, instead of a big investigation and strikes and bans, a little ooc communication between the player base need not get out of hand, and could make things better.

[oldgrayrogue]

I am looking into whether the spawn system is functioning as intended. I agree that an "empty" gameworld is hardly "persistent" which is one of our Pillars after all.

As far as XP rewards for combat kills, I have levied criticism at this in the past, as I believe the reward should be comensurate with the risk. If a PC can solo an entire cave there is little risk and therefore there should be little reward. I agree that higher CR monsters should yield a higher reward when defeated, based off of PC and/or party level, which is how I believe it is currently done.

[Keryn]

I never meant this to address farming issues, that should be handled elsewhere if anyone has something to complain, even though as it was pointed it may add up to the current situation. We have a little number of spawns that means that once they are taken the rest of the players will have to deal with the nothingness. Even if they were not farmed so to speak...

I was looking into a potential solution for the lack of activity I see in our servers which I think partially comes from the fact that PCs have a hard time stumbling upon an encounter even if they go out looking for troubles so to speak.

The DM situation even if not ideal may ease this issue.

[Blindhamsterman]

I'm always on the side of enforcing our rules through punishing those who break them vs. gimping the game for the rest of us.

That said,I think a lot can be done outside of the static spawns to add some variety to the server. When cloud was DMing she'd set up little encounters and just leave them for people to stumble on, sometimes with a chest with minor loot. It's not a full blown technical solution, but a DM dropping a few random encounters in random areas shouldn't take too long and can add to the feeling the world around us shifts and changes and the same area isn't always full of the same critters.

as for the full tech solution to this, it feels like an immense amount of work to do something technical. If someones farming constantly and you feel it is negatively impacting your game and others, I would flat out mention it to them, ask them to stop, indicate their error so they have a chance to act differently and only then involve the laborious complaints process in alfa. Sometimes things can be solved with a warning or a threat, instead of a big investigation and strikes and bans, a little ooc communication between the player base need not get out of hand, and could make things better.

This was actually a really nice addition, Hollyfant I believe also did this for a while.
The important things if our current DMs are willing to do this I guess, is people need to remember to log out somewhere safe (a player hub) as there's nothing worse than logging in, stood next to a level 5 barbarian gnoll with your squishy wizard!

As the DMs have a forum for them to make sure everything is done properly and above board now (the name sadly escapes me, but Jaydemoon is leading the project) I guess they can decide on relevant places for them to drop spawns etc. Could be quite good fun if they went as far as locking and trapping some of the doors in the random dungeons scattered about the server