Policing and PC Statistics

[oldgrayrogue]

Is there an easy way to access statistics for each PC to examine their rate of leveling, source of XP earned, wealth etc., without being logged onto the DM client? Can it be done without identifying the PC and player of the PC? I am pretty sure the former can be done, not sure about the latter.

There has been much discussion in the Exodus integration thread about preventing abuses before they happen through rules versus investigating and sanctioning abuses after the rules have been demonstrated to have been broken by specific players. DMs have honestly and quite understandably expressed that they want to spend their time being creative and not enforcing rules and punishing rule breakers. IMO this sort of thing should come under the PA's jurisdiction anyway, and I am trying to think of ways we can make policing easier and ideally anonymous.

[CloudDancing]

Hey OGR,

If you are concerned about youself (or another player) you can ask a DM to check the logs easily and report back to you. It takes me about 1 minute to check up on Corio's exciting career on our server for example.

My currently *snort* policing consists of checking the TSM logs every Am at the same time for irregularities. I am a good dataminer oddly enough so I can see..pretty much everything.

So every morning I get a snapshot of TSM. If I see anything funny or nontypical, I just post it the DM forum. I don't spam Curm. but I should more often since it gets his attention better. In the end HDM decides if he thinks it's an issue for the PA.

Over a period of time we get an EXTREMELY accurate shot of what your PC has been doing and we can see how much time you spend in each activity as well as how much you gained.

So a brief example, someone accuses another player of powergaming. We can see Player X has 35 pages of combat XP between levels 1-4. Or we can very easily determine that they took statics A, B,C, and D and slammed them all in in two hours.

Personally, if you are worrying if you look like you are powergaming, untill a Dm steps up and mentions it, you probably aren't. We are not in the dark. We expect responsible players to examine their ingame motivations.

[Blindhamsterman]

the above is great and useful, being able to check up on where things stand with your PC assuming a DM is free is very useful

[Sandermann]

Not putting something into your module that is open to abuse is a good start. If you dont want a static repeated more than once a week, use the database to prevent it.
If a static is repeatable, and repeatable often, then it is there for a player to repeat.

But, onto policing.
Policing in live is the responsibility of DMs, its part of the job unfortunately. If you want to make it easier then we need more DMs, as atm I think we have 3 or 4 active DMs across the whole of ALFA - this is the root of the problem not the rules themselves.

The weight of any judgement always fall in favour of the player, rather than the DM.

So - you want to make policing less of a hassle, we need more DMs and they need to be able to actually do the policing part of the job quickly and easily without fear of mob reprisal.

[johnlewismcleod]

I suspect OGR is asking if there is a way for a player to help with policing to lighten the load for DM's. I think it is a brilliant idea if it can possibly be done...we have many players who aren't interested in DMing, but are still willing to help with admin tasks and could be a great help.

[CloudDancing]

Well there was talk of needing a new PA (player admin) but after spending time with Audark and hearing about his issues before he was deployed, I think the next PA should not be a DM (if possible.)

We also welcome players letting us know when we should check the logs, or you meet a Player Character who is having trouble with their RP or you see busy with these activities or who basically asks you to powerlevel or babysit them.

[Sandermann]

I suspect OGR is asking if there is a way for a player to help with policing to lighten the load for DM's.

Yeah, dont cheat.

I think the next PA should not be a DM (if possible.)

PA is elected by the membership, its not up to you.

I would rather see the two sides of the fence remain clearly. You are only muddying the waters by having half-DMs or whatever you want to call them in the end.
If someone wants to give something back, they can DM, join one of the Admin staff teams, build, help zic with infrastructure and hosting...we already have a 101 ways for people to help that they choose not to do, why add another one?

[oldgrayrogue]

I suspect OGR is asking if there is a way for a player to help with policing to lighten the load for DM's. I think it is a brilliant idea if it can possibly be done...we have many players who aren't interested in DMing, but are still willing to help with admin tasks and could be a great help.

This was the intent of my post, thanks John. No Cloud, I am not worried about Corio or being perceived as a powergamer. Sander, I respect your opinion and all the hard work you do. My above suggestion was motivated by the posts of those DMs and others who said they dislike or don't have the time to do policing. I would rather have DMs DMing, building etc as well, so I thought if there was a simple way to police anonomously -- so no DM meta info imparted -- maybe this is something the ARs could do under the PA to free up the DMs. Frankly, the AR's are already privy to some meta info during dispute investigations so I did not see this as a huge blurring of lines between the player and DM sides of the screen.

As far as volunteering, I do what RL permits, as an AR still and previously as a DM. I also try to contribute positively in discussions on the boards, although it may not always be perceived that way.

Thanks, everyone for the input. If having ARs (who are mostly idle unless there is an active dispute or new players to welcome and counsel) do some front policing is a bad idea, at least I can say I tried.

Peace.

[johnlewismcleod]

Seems a very good idea to me. In the capacity of AR they could likely settle most of the issues without DM's having to get involved.

I hate policing myself, and prefer to only get involved when necessary (mostly because, as OGR said, I prefer to spend what time I have available on DMing).

[Sandermann]

well on a more serious note OGR, I think the best thing players can do to stop it is turn grass and give anyone cheater the cold shoulder.

If someone is cheating, then calling them out for it is a powerful tool, as is simply refusing to play with that person.

I appreiciate the sentiment expressed, but id much rather the problem is adressed without adding another layer of beauraucracy to AFLA.

[Regas]

Ogr, I think your suggestions are interesting, we've looked at having the ARs take on more of an enforcement role in the past and decided against it, but that's not to say we couldn't revisit it. It certainly brings up issues of portfolio between the DMA and the PA. I would suggest we focus on Exodus's disposition first--get Exodus integrated into the community and revisit the idea of officially changing the role of ARs once we have a full time PA in place--still, a good idea worth further examination.

Reg

[Veilan]

While I can understand where the idea is coming from, I'm personally fundamentally and philosophically opposed to players policing players. Imho, it's just a recipe for trouble, and since any enforcement actually requires DMs, I don't see how it's much of help on workload.

If ARs feel like counselling players and suggesting a more constructive behaviour for the community, that's fine and dandy, but the game world is designed and ruled by the DMs. Another player simply has no business trying to police a fellow player's behaviour, and I'm rather sure that would turn ugly fairly quick.

If you really want to help out with policing, I can only add a +1 to:

they can DM, join one of the Admin staff teams, build, help zic with infrastructure and hosting...we already have a 101 ways for people to help that they choose not to do, why add another one?

[oldgrayrogue]

I'm not suggesting players policing players. The suggestion was that ARs, (which I am)who as far as I know are Admin as part of the PA's staff, take a larger role in policing. In fact they already do this with respect to the investigation and resolution of disputes. Not seeing the big leap here. Anyway, Regas makes a good point, and I am happy to table the discussion until after the Exodus integration gets sorted out and we have an active PA again, which should be next month if I am not mistaken.

[oldgrayrogue]

One more post as a place holder to inform the subsequent discussion.

From the Rule Book:

This Chapter contains procedural rules for the investigation of complaints submitted to the Player Admin or the ALFA representatives.
4.1 Investigators
The Player Admin may elect to investigate complaints himself, or assign one or more ALFA Representatives to the case.

* * *

4.4 Investigation Dismissal Or Dispute
The Player Admin may dismiss a complaint at any point in the investigation. No other party may dismiss complaints. If the Player Admin determines that the investigation has provided sufficient evidence, they may initiate a formal dispute proceeding, or resolve the complaint through an informal dispute resolution.

* * *

5.4 Dispute Verdict
At any point after the initial 7 days the Player Admin may lock the thread and declare the verdict. The verdict is effective immediately, unless stated otherwise.
5.5 Appeals
Only verdicts that find wrongdoing may be appealed against. Such appeals must be made to the Lead Admin within 30 days of the verdict, as per Section 3.6 of the ALFA Charter.
5.6 Informal Dispute Resolution
Informal dispute resolutions rely on the consent of the accused, the complainant, and the Player Admin. If any of these parties disagree with the informal dispute resolution, the case must proceed to formal dispute procedures.
5.7 Removal Of Illegal Gains
The Player Admin may decide that in addition to or instead of any other formal censure, a player who is subject to censure through the formal dispute procedure will also lose any gains made from the offence. This can include the loss of XP, wealth and in extreme cases forced retirement of the player character.

* * *

7.3 Formal Censure
Formal censure is issued by the Player Admin after a formal dispute, or by the Infra Admin. There are three levels of censure. Admin determines which level of censure will be imposed in the individual case.
7.3.1 First Formal Censure
The member is banned from all of ALFA (servers as well as forums and chat) for 24 hours.
7.3.2 Second Formal Censure
The member is banned from all of ALFA (servers as well as forums and chat) for 7 days. At this point the member is no longer considered to be in good standing, and may thus no longer run for Admin, as per Section 3.1 in the ALFA charter.
7.3.3 Third Formal Censure
The member is permanently banned from all of ALFA (servers as well as forums and chat).



From the Charter:

2.1.1 Domains
The five administrative domains are:

B. DM Administrator—Oversight of DMs & Servers including Item Compliance, Global Plots & Quests, DM Approval & Discipline, among others.

* * *

E. Player Administrator—Applications, Guilds, ALFA Player’s Manual, ALFA Representatives, Player Discipline, and Player Acceptance.

* * *

2.4 ALFA Representatives (AR)
ARs are intermediaries involved in investigations of reported violations, counseling of players, and mediation of disputes. ARs are selected by the Player Administrator and are members of the Player Administrator’s staff. Neither administrators nor HDMs may be ARs. The number of ARs shall be determined by the Player Administrator, to a maximum of ten ARs.

Oversight of ARs is the purview of the Player Administrator.

2.5 Players
Player status is simply a membership classification applied to all those who are members of ALFA. This position is not mutually exclusive with any other position in ALFA. All Members are allowed to play a Player Character (PC) in ALFA.
Oversight of Players is the purview of the Player Administrator.

___________________________________________________________
Based upon the foregoing, it seems that "oversight" and "discipline" of players is squarely within the domain of the PA, and that ARs are clearly part of Admin as members of the PA Staff. I concede that under the charter "policing" as opposed to investigation of formal disputes would require an expansion of the role of ARs. Either that or the PA or some other designated member of his/her staff could be appointed to serve that function I guess. Anyway, that's how I read the rules.

[Rotku]

PA elections are coming up in a few weeks time *hint hint*