Non feat 'feats'
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:37 pm
Just wishing, brainstorming, like the name of the forum... with the possibilities potentially opened up with the eventual release of the 1.23 patch I thought I'd throw this out. I'm pretty sure these were discussed previously but I can't seem to find any threads.
ALFA1 had some additional options for tactical combat (which do not require feats) that are bread and butter in pnp, such as charge attacks, made available as pseudo 'feats' that were granted to every pc on creation. How about doing this with alfa2, and including things like disarm and trip/knockdown (not the Improved versions, those are only available by taking the feat) to be available without having to spend a feat for them, just like in pnp? Disarm and knockdown/trip would be easy to implement as the vanilla nwn2 versions are pretty close to how they work in pnp (much more so than nwn1's versions); all we'd have to do is have them automaticly given as free 'feats' upon character creation or after creation via script.
Why NWN1 and NWN2 decided that basic tactical options like these would require a feat to perform mystifies me (maybe they wanted to artificially 'pad' the number of feats on their list to seem more impressive); the 'Improved' versions of these moves require feats but the basic moves should not. Especially since disarm is useless apparently (see separate thread on the topic) vs NPC's/monsters, but can work vs other PCs, why require the expenditure of a feat when it's an option that should be available to anyone in the first place (although not everyone will be anywhere near effective with it obviously)? If nothing else it will present some new options to handling cvc without having to outright kill an opponent every time (although subdual is also an option al beit much more risky for the subduer vs the opponent who strikes to kill), as well as making for some fun possibilities when dualing/sparring.
Knockdown, this one's always been more controversial... in NWN1 it was a terror, inflicting damage while knocking an opponent prone, and it's use of the dubious discipline skill check meant it was overpowering versus non warrior types. In NWN2, that's no longer the case (thank god) and it works very close to pnp, with no dmg, requiring a str vs str or str vs dex check (the choice favoring the defender) if it hits, which is what pnp trip does. A fighter trying to trip an agile rogue will not have such an easy time, as it'd be his str vs the rogue's dex check. Plus I think acr implements a timer on top of it (a bit buggy last I checked, sometimes it disables the knockdown for several minutes), further limiting it. Either way, you shouldn't need a feat to (somewhat clumsily) attempt a trip move either; like disarm if you want the Improved version, then you spend a feat.
Down the road perhaps some additional tactical options could be worked out (grapple anyone? sunder I could see being a huge headache, bullrush maybe), but as is, nwn2 comes supplied with disarm and knockdown already that work very close to pnp rules, and the basic versions could be available as tactical options for anyone without requiring feats just like pnp.
Similarly, Improved Expertize should be given for free if you have the Expertize feat and your BAB is high enough (+6 BAB iirc how Imp Expertize works in nwn2), not requre another feat.
I find combat gets more interesting both mechanically and RP wise when you have more tactical options like these; certainly we could roll a bunch of dice with the DMFI and follow the pnp rules and declare 'I disarmed you', but it's tricky and not always elegant (especially when AOO's are involved) - why not use the parts of the game engine that would take care of this automaticly if it's working correctly? Worth considering I think, at some point down the road when things like our custom skills, etc have been taken care of.
ALFA1 had some additional options for tactical combat (which do not require feats) that are bread and butter in pnp, such as charge attacks, made available as pseudo 'feats' that were granted to every pc on creation. How about doing this with alfa2, and including things like disarm and trip/knockdown (not the Improved versions, those are only available by taking the feat) to be available without having to spend a feat for them, just like in pnp? Disarm and knockdown/trip would be easy to implement as the vanilla nwn2 versions are pretty close to how they work in pnp (much more so than nwn1's versions); all we'd have to do is have them automaticly given as free 'feats' upon character creation or after creation via script.
Why NWN1 and NWN2 decided that basic tactical options like these would require a feat to perform mystifies me (maybe they wanted to artificially 'pad' the number of feats on their list to seem more impressive); the 'Improved' versions of these moves require feats but the basic moves should not. Especially since disarm is useless apparently (see separate thread on the topic) vs NPC's/monsters, but can work vs other PCs, why require the expenditure of a feat when it's an option that should be available to anyone in the first place (although not everyone will be anywhere near effective with it obviously)? If nothing else it will present some new options to handling cvc without having to outright kill an opponent every time (although subdual is also an option al beit much more risky for the subduer vs the opponent who strikes to kill), as well as making for some fun possibilities when dualing/sparring.
Knockdown, this one's always been more controversial... in NWN1 it was a terror, inflicting damage while knocking an opponent prone, and it's use of the dubious discipline skill check meant it was overpowering versus non warrior types. In NWN2, that's no longer the case (thank god) and it works very close to pnp, with no dmg, requiring a str vs str or str vs dex check (the choice favoring the defender) if it hits, which is what pnp trip does. A fighter trying to trip an agile rogue will not have such an easy time, as it'd be his str vs the rogue's dex check. Plus I think acr implements a timer on top of it (a bit buggy last I checked, sometimes it disables the knockdown for several minutes), further limiting it. Either way, you shouldn't need a feat to (somewhat clumsily) attempt a trip move either; like disarm if you want the Improved version, then you spend a feat.
Down the road perhaps some additional tactical options could be worked out (grapple anyone? sunder I could see being a huge headache, bullrush maybe), but as is, nwn2 comes supplied with disarm and knockdown already that work very close to pnp rules, and the basic versions could be available as tactical options for anyone without requiring feats just like pnp.
Similarly, Improved Expertize should be given for free if you have the Expertize feat and your BAB is high enough (+6 BAB iirc how Imp Expertize works in nwn2), not requre another feat.
I find combat gets more interesting both mechanically and RP wise when you have more tactical options like these; certainly we could roll a bunch of dice with the DMFI and follow the pnp rules and declare 'I disarmed you', but it's tricky and not always elegant (especially when AOO's are involved) - why not use the parts of the game engine that would take care of this automaticly if it's working correctly? Worth considering I think, at some point down the road when things like our custom skills, etc have been taken care of.