Non feat 'feats'

[Ithildur]

Just wishing, brainstorming, like the name of the forum... with the possibilities potentially opened up with the eventual release of the 1.23 patch I thought I'd throw this out. I'm pretty sure these were discussed previously but I can't seem to find any threads.

ALFA1 had some additional options for tactical combat (which do not require feats) that are bread and butter in pnp, such as charge attacks, made available as pseudo 'feats' that were granted to every pc on creation. How about doing this with alfa2, and including things like disarm and trip/knockdown (not the Improved versions, those are only available by taking the feat) to be available without having to spend a feat for them, just like in pnp? Disarm and knockdown/trip would be easy to implement as the vanilla nwn2 versions are pretty close to how they work in pnp (much more so than nwn1's versions); all we'd have to do is have them automaticly given as free 'feats' upon character creation or after creation via script.

Why NWN1 and NWN2 decided that basic tactical options like these would require a feat to perform mystifies me (maybe they wanted to artificially 'pad' the number of feats on their list to seem more impressive); the 'Improved' versions of these moves require feats but the basic moves should not. Especially since disarm is useless apparently (see separate thread on the topic) vs NPC's/monsters, but can work vs other PCs, why require the expenditure of a feat when it's an option that should be available to anyone in the first place (although not everyone will be anywhere near effective with it obviously)? If nothing else it will present some new options to handling cvc without having to outright kill an opponent every time (although subdual is also an option al beit much more risky for the subduer vs the opponent who strikes to kill), as well as making for some fun possibilities when dualing/sparring.

Knockdown, this one's always been more controversial... in NWN1 it was a terror, inflicting damage while knocking an opponent prone, and it's use of the dubious discipline skill check meant it was overpowering versus non warrior types. In NWN2, that's no longer the case (thank god) and it works very close to pnp, with no dmg, requiring a str vs str or str vs dex check (the choice favoring the defender) if it hits, which is what pnp trip does. A fighter trying to trip an agile rogue will not have such an easy time, as it'd be his str vs the rogue's dex check. Plus I think acr implements a timer on top of it (a bit buggy last I checked, sometimes it disables the knockdown for several minutes), further limiting it. Either way, you shouldn't need a feat to (somewhat clumsily) attempt a trip move either; like disarm if you want the Improved version, then you spend a feat.

Down the road perhaps some additional tactical options could be worked out (grapple anyone? sunder I could see being a huge headache, bullrush maybe), but as is, nwn2 comes supplied with disarm and knockdown already that work very close to pnp rules, and the basic versions could be available as tactical options for anyone without requiring feats just like pnp.

Similarly, Improved Expertize should be given for free if you have the Expertize feat and your BAB is high enough (+6 BAB iirc how Imp Expertize works in nwn2), not requre another feat.

I find combat gets more interesting both mechanically and RP wise when you have more tactical options like these; certainly we could roll a bunch of dice with the DMFI and follow the pnp rules and declare 'I disarmed you', but it's tricky and not always elegant (especially when AOO's are involved) - why not use the parts of the game engine that would take care of this automaticly if it's working correctly? Worth considering I think, at some point down the road when things like our custom skills, etc have been taken care of.

[Keryn]

I think this could work well, as Ithildur pointed out as we are the tactical options in a hostile situation are sort of limited. With subdual in we can opt for confrontations without death being a problem, but other situations before getting to this point could also make it for a more interesting feeling and deph. Well and specially since ALFA is an attempt to represent a closer experience to pnp I guess this would only make sense.

[Coaan]

How hard would it be to add 'defensive fighting' and 'total defense' abilities? they're supposed to be lesser versions of expertise for people who can't pick up the feats. And everyone gets them for free.

[Ithildur]

How hard would it be to add 'defensive fighting' and 'total defense' abilities? they're supposed to be lesser versions of expertise for people who can't pick up the feats. And everyone gets them for free.

That'd be nice. It might also help a bit with lowbie survival rates if used judiciously at times. Though you shouldn't be able to run at full speed and escape while in total defense, as running's a full round action and total defense is a standard action, can't do both at the same time. It should disable run while functioning.

[dob85y]

COooool,

I didnt realise such a thing was possible. This is exactly what we need to bring in the proper weapon proficiency rules.

Give all characters a widget item that grants all vanilla WP feats, then make all weapons ingame -4 to hit (modified up for MW and magical)

Then change the WP feat from granting ability to hold a weapon, to giving a +4 to hit.

Obviously the logistics are fairly intense, but if anyone can arrange a script or method to overcome it then we can fix one of the biggest differences (IMO) between NWN2 and PnP

[AcadiusLost]

Proper weapon proficiencies: Probably not feasible.
New automatic feats for "defensive fighting" and "total defense": also dubiously feasible

(furthermore, if we had those, would make sense for many of the more trained/intelligent mobs to have them as well, which could make AC inflation on humanoid spawns fairly troublesome, as well as the AI to decide when to use it)

Granting the base Disarm and Knockdown feats for free is easy enough, and something we'd tossed around as an idea before, to simulate PnP rules. We could also rename Knockdown to "Trip". Unfortunately, until 1.23, they'd still show up as option in character creation, and cause a wasted feat or two for anyone that actually picked one or more of them from the list.

With regards to Charge attack, I'd have to see what the NWN1 code for that was like. Presumably it would be portable to NWN2 as well. The additional overhead of pathfinding across NWN2's more complex walkmesh might make it impractical, but we can test it out.

Might be good to get a Standards thread going for those who want to debate the pluses and minuses of free disarm & trip/knockdown in the meantime.

[HEEGZ]

Might be good to get a Standards thread going for those who want to debate the pluses and minuses of free disarm & trip/knockdown in the meantime.

Done.

http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... 11&t=42465

[Blindhamsterman]

I like the idea of extra combat options! would really add to the gameplay. We could just as easily make the fighter type feats just make these tasks easier anyway? (especially if they're based off skill rolls or ability checks etc)