A Land Far Away

Okay, I'm sick of it. Waiting for PT approval was far too long, and now i spent hours designing a Favored Soul character class, only to find out I have to get approval for that as well.

Seriously, this is ridiculous. Just let people create their characters and if they don't do a good job of maintaining their concepts, or the races, penalize them or have them recreate a character... but standing in the way, with all this month long approval/disapproval system only discourages people (from the time i wanted to RP the concept, to the time i popped out with a comprehensive bio, to the time it was approved, was over two weeks). I lost interest in the PT i created by the time it came to being evaluated and approved (10+ days). I'm not going to waste another month, or more, waiting for an approval on a Favored Soul character concept (frankly, i despise writing bios for 1st level characters, because they have a very small chance of survival).

This approach is broken, and it's discouraging. I'm going to take a break before i blow a fuse on this crap.

Here's my recommendation: Put these character concepts/races on a level limit. Once they reach 3rd level, the character cannot advance in levels until they provide a bio that is subsequently accepted. Just have the Start Area door indicate they need to provide a bio, which will need to be approved, before they can go beyond 3rd level. This gives the player an opportunity to flesh out the character concept, experience how it is to be waltzing about with a planetouched race or "special class." Let them get a feel for what their character will be like, or how they will be treated, before 'forcing' them to present a detailed bio on something that will most likely die within the first few weeks after approval, or turn out to be something they don't want to RP after all.

Plainly stated, PT characters are not overpowered... especially when it takes them 3000xp to get to 2nd level. So, the only logical reason for the approval system on PTs, Favored Souls, and whatever other "special" classes, is to ensure the players know how to roleplay them. But, seriously, providing a Bio doesn't ensure this. When players joined ALFA, they filled out an application. In that application they had to provide information that detailed how they play. Having someone fill out a character Bio is just one more hoop that "Accepted Members of ALFA" have to jump through, and honestly... i find it insulting.

This actually makes some sense. Im with WW on this one.

This actually makes some sense. Im with WW on this one.

There's always a first time for everything.

It makes sense to me, although it would be bloody annoying not to be allowed after playing a character for months already. And there's the risk of ridiculous PTs of FSes. But no more or less than ridiculous Halflings.

although it would be bloody annoying not to be allowed after playing a character for months already.

I'd think that one who didn't want to invest months of play to get the bio disapproved would just write the bio first to test the waters on the concept. WW's proposal does say "before 3rd level" and not "at 3rd level," after all.

I like it.

WW it sounds like you are frustrated with the time it took to get the character approved, not necessarily the requirement for a bio, approval etc. As you state, you spent hours designing this character etc, so it doesn't seem like a PM to the HDM is so onerous. Would speeding up the approval process satisfy your concerns?

IMO PT and FS have the potential to require a lot of DM intervention because of the attention the race and class draw from other players. It seems only courteous to send the HDM a bio, whether approval is required or not.

oldgrayrogue wrote:WW it sounds like you are frustrated with the time it took to get the character approved, not necessarily the requirement for a bio, approval etc. As you state, you spent hours designing this character etc, so it doesn't seem like a PM to the HDM is so onerous. Would speeding up the approval process satisfy your concerns?

I'm not even going into the matter of wether it took too long or not. But it probably won't get any faster. Especially once we get a second and hopefully a third nwn2 server online and these copncepts start requiring approval by not one, but by a grooup of HDMs.

I imagine the initial time it took to get accepted had more to do with the option only just getting opened up and lot of people deciding to play PS/FS all at once. I expect the applications will be a bit more staggered now and thus quicker to be approved.

Anyway, the delay should help weed out the "OMG! OMG! OMG! It would be so kewl to play PT/FS!" without-really-having-a-solid-idea-of-a-concept-first crowd.

psycho_leo wrote:Especially once we get a second and hopefully a third nwn2 server online and these copncepts start requiring approval by not one, but by a grooup of HDMs.

Actually its already a group thats voting on it. TSMs HDM, as well as the HDMs of our next two servers destined for live. I supposed the DM-admin will also be looking at them but currently one of the HMDs IS our DM admin.


I doubt the voting group will get bigger without a few more servers getting close to live. maybe around then we will be comfy dropping the restrictions anyway. I think its mostly in place cause its like the end of prohibition, and the DMs were worried it would feel like a flood of planetouched.


I agree the hoops should take less time to jump, and could see them being dropped totally for the planetouched eventually. But i gotta say that i still think its a good idea for a favored soul. A planetouched is just an accident of birth, but a Favored Soul is literally a gods favorite mortal. (or maybe even their relative, time of troubles wasnt SO long ago).

It took a while because as we started discussing one, another would come in. We got several at once. We sent some back for work. We wanted to see if it was a flood or an initial rush. We wanted to widen the group voting on it and we were discussing implementation of the system itself, which Curm raised at the DM meeting last weekend with the rest of the HDMs who attended. You were approved within hours of that meeting, WW, as were the others who were approved.

Chill. People are doing the best they can, on all sides.

Basically, let me reiterate what Wynna said - the process isn't meant to be quick rubber-stamping. The application reviewed carefully by a number of people requires some patience on your part - this is something that you're hesitant about, you may wish to reconsider wishing to play an extraordinary character.

That said, the process may speed up as we all become more familiar with the system.

Veilan, danielmn, you both clearly missed the point.

Paazin, Wynna, thank you for your responses. Unfortunately, I think it was missed some of the points i was attempting to present:

• * It may have only taken hours to approve the applications presented at the meeting, but it took weeks for that meeting to be scheduled.
  
  * This requirement for bios to be provided "in advance" undermines the idea of creating a character concept as you play and feel out the character. It also fails to allow a player the chance to realize just where that PC is going to fit ingame, with the dynamics he/she will experience once that PC interacts.
  
  * NONE of the PTs or "special classes" are game imbalancing. If a person is not playing to race, class, or alignment, a DM will need to talk to them... that's it. Really, that's it, and it's the same for any race/class/alignment.
  
  * A bio does virtually "nothing" to determine whether a person is going to accurately roleplay their race/class/alignment. It's in the pudding, the roleplay, not the bio or application for membership.
  
  * The vast majority of PCs die within the first two levels of play, within the first two weeks of play. Having a person write up a 'detailed' Bio, only to have them die in a matter of days after being accepted is immensely disconcerting.
  
  * ALFAns have "ALREADY" been accepted to ALFA. Some comments here once again illustrate how we don't trust members for even the most basic of things, like roleplaying.
  
  * Posing a Bio prerequisite gives these races/classes an ELITIST standing that they really should not have. I.e., people will choose these races/classes merely for the impression they are in the "special" club of doubly-approved members. The "better" ALFA roleplayers *groan*.

White Warlock wrote:* It may have only taken hours to approve the applications presented at the meeting, but it took weeks for that meeting to be scheduled.

Addressed by Wynna and paazin - procedure in progress, it'll get more streamlined as experiences are made.

White Warlock wrote:* This requirement for bios to be provided "in advance" undermines the idea of creating a character concept as you play and feel out the character. It also fails to allow a player the chance to realize just where that PC is going to fit ingame, with the dynamics he/she will experience once that PC interacts.

ALFA is not the kind of PW that supports "casually" throwing up an extraordinary PC and see how you feel to develop him, as the casualty for a bad attempt here may well be the enjoyment of others. It certainly cannot be the burden of the DMs and other PCs to bear someone's inability to prepare in other fashions, or as paazin put it:

love bunny wrote:this is something that you're hesitant about, you may wish to reconsider wishing to play an extraordinary character.

I know this is tough love, but I think considering we got PTs at all, this is not an exaggerated precaution. You are, of course, free to disagree - your disagreement, however, does not make us "miss points".

White Warlock wrote:* NONE of the PTs or "special classes" are game imbalancing.

Opinion, and one hard to substantiate either way at that. Furthermore, it is quite irrelevant - the restriction on PTs is not because of assessments of their mechanical power. The system is in place to let the DM teams get a grip on them, take some weeding out, and ensure an overall high quality of entertainment for everyone involved. You want the special character, you jump the hoops.

White Warlock wrote:* A bio does virtually "nothing" to determine whether a person is going to accurately roleplay their race/class/alignment. It's in the pudding, the roleplay, not the bio or application for membership.

Again, opinion. Regardless, I agree with you to some extent - I agree that a bio is not a sufficient condition. But I do think it a necessary one. If you cannot produce a fitting background that shows your grasp of putting your character into perspective in a PW such as ALFA and FR lore in general, then we really don't need to proceed further, do we.

White Warlock wrote:* The vast majority of PCs die within the first two levels of play, within the first two weeks of play. Having a person write up a 'detailed' Bio, only to have them die in a matter of days after being accepted is immensely disconcerting.

I'm fairly sure the type of player that we consider for special characters is experienced enough not to go die to the next kobold.

Also:

honeysweetsugarpot wrote:this is something that you're hesitant about, you may wish to reconsider wishing to play an extraordinary character.

White Warlock wrote:* ALFAns have "ALREADY" been accepted to ALFA. Some comments here once again illustrate how we don't trust members for even the most basic of things, like roleplaying.

Wait a moment - didn't you argue before we should allow them all, then weed the unsuitable elements out? Well, this is something like that. While everyone gets their chance to develop and learn more and better roleplaying in ALFA, our standards we expect in game may not lend themselves to applying this principle while you play a character with a big potential to negatively impact the enjoyment of others.

White Warlock wrote:* Posing a Bio prerequisite gives these races/classes an ELITIST standing that they really should not have. I.e., people will choose these races/classes merely for the impression they are in the "special" club of doubly-approved members. The "better" ALFA roleplayers *groan*.

Again, opinion, and this time one I don't share . Getting your PT approved doesn't confer any bragging rights to anyone.




So, mate, what it really boils down to is that you seem to consider it some inacceptable burden to give your DM team and fellow players some reassurence that you are not going to be a pain for them. I don't think this should be asked too much from someone who wants to play a special / extraordinary / rare kind of character. Considering PTs were for a long time not possible in this community, I am amazed how such a compromise, taking into consideration the concerns of our DM corps and non-PT-interested players, is made out to be such a burden, when in fact I think we can very well chalk it down to courtesy and common sense.

Cheers,