Paladin Class Feature to Replace Paladin Mounts

[SwordSaintMusashi]

I am aware that the Neverwinter Nights engine cannot support mounts, and will not be able to in the foreseeable future. As many may know, one of the classic class features of paladin was at level 5 to be able to summon a steed in their service. While it might not seem useful, the steed provided pack space, attacks (as many of the mount options were very viable in combat) and terrain options (flying mounts, etc).

To offset this, Neverwinter Nights (or ALFA, not sure which) has made it so that a paladin’s caster level is equal to their paladin level, and not cut in half. The problem with this is that paladins spells are not incredibly dependant on caster level, which is why the half caster level was fine. Sure, it gives a few extra minutes to Bull’s Strength or Magic Weapon, but in the long run this does not compensate for the loss of a potential ally.

I wish to suggest using one of the variants Wizards of the Coast put forth to replace paladin mounts. While useful, it is not game breaking: Celestial Weapon.

Celestial Weapon was presented in Dragon Magazine after Wizards of The Coast declared the contents of the magazine to be canon and acceptable as any source book. This ability replaces Special Mount at level 5. It allows a paladin to summon a weapon forged in a good aligned plane or by a servant of their deity, representing a portion of their pure soul in a material form. At level 5 it starts as a +1 good aligned weapon (not holy, just good aligned for bypassing damage reduction). At level 10 it becomes a +2 weapon. At level 15 it becomes +2 holy. At level 20 it becomes +2 holy lawful. The paladin can enchant the weapon further as if he had the prerequisite spells and feats, though he must still pay all experience point and gold costs as normal for enchanting a weapon. The weapon usually takes the form of their deity’s preferred weapon (longsword for Tyr, greatsword for Torm, bastard sword for Helm, etc). However, if the paladin is not proficient with that kind of weapon, it usually defaults to a longsword (or the paladin’s preferred weapon, at DM’s discretion.). If destroyed, a paladin can summon a new one after 30 days time. A paladin can always choose to have the weapon return to the forge for storage, or have it on his person, but he cannot summon it more than 1/day, +1 per point of cha modifier.

By Neverwinter Nights terms, this would be dependant on a dungeon master. When a paladin becomes level 5, the dungeon master would present them with the weapon (maybe have a forge master NPC or some minor servant of the deity present it to the paladin), or make it involve a quest that the paladin shows themselves worthy of the gift (even with special mounts, I always liked finding my mount, not just hitting level five and going "Look what I can do!”). The weapon would be set as un-stealable and un-sellable, since a paladin could always de-summon then re-summon the weapon to avoid theft and would never sell such an item and still be able to remain a paladin. As far as enchanting it goes, dungeon masters would also be involved to give it what the paladin wished to enchant it with and then subtract the necessary gold pieces and experience points. This is just an idea, however.

As far as flavor goes, the weapon would look as the paladin would imagine it to, since it is a representation of themselves anyway. The name of it is typically the character’s name or title in Celestial.

Let me know what you think. I’m open to constructive criticism, or an outright no if this does seem overpowered. Thanks!

[Rick7475]

I am a big paladin fan myself.

One of the things I proposed before and was rejected was to actually have a paladin mount.

I am going to investigate the use of pets in ALFA like we had or still have in NWN1.

In NWN1 we had rideable horses as well.

Since druids and rangers can have animal companions, why not paladins have a steed as an animal companion, and later, when NWN2 has rdeable mounts, adjust it so the companion is a rideable one.

[AcadiusLost]

Rideable horses are not currently possible in NWN2- the models and animations simply don't exist yet. It's difficult to say whether they will eventually be developed for NWN2 or not- so far there don't seem to be very many community content developers working on NWN2, as it is far less user-friendly for such things.

Implementing the paladin warhorse without any prospect of ride-ability would seem to turn it into some sort of backup oversized war-dog or something, which to me seems pretty absurd; what kind of knight dismounts and orders his horse to kick their opponents?

I'd think the Celestial Weapon sort of thing would be preferable, if anything.

[Brokenbone]

Since it's a brainstorming forum, I'll try to keep away from the balance type critiques, and just say the Dragon mag thing sounds interesting.

Since people get fussy (and rightly so) about posting copyrighted material, even scans and whatnot around here sometimes, maybe sticking up a Rapidshare or similar third party link with that article could be helpful for a look? Just to see any other miscellaneous details like "how long the weapon sticks around per summon" or "what happens if it gets lost or destroyed?" (is it like a familiar dying? Not like weapons get sundered in NWN2, but they might in PnP, i.e., there may be disadvantages we can't simulate)

In NWN2 terms, I assume some kind of widgety type item could, via script, simply be used (howevermany times a day) to create or destroy a "Helmite Paladin Sword 5", or "Tormite Paladin Sword 10" or something like that, by the player well... using the item.

...

Not to be harsh (again, it's a brainstorming forum), but I am not huge on the idea of a non-rideable battle animal chumming around with a Paladin. Pokemon battlebuddy = weird. Mounted chevalier type, whose horse resists a lot of odds and ends types of attacks = non-weird.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

I have been trying all day to find it online to no avail. When I get home, I'll post the Dragon Magazine # and Page # and those details.

It doesn't have a "time", so to speak. Once summoned, it remains as long as the paladin wishes. It just has a number of times per day it can be summoned to and from the celestial forge where it resides. If it breaks, you don't suffer any penalties, though you have to wait 30 days to get a replacement (which I think is the same thing with a paladin mount dying).

I also agree that the idea of a warhorse that cannot be ridden defeats the purpose of the matter. Don't get me wrong, I love the paladin warhorse ability. I'm an avid paladin player in NWN, NWN2, pen and paper, etc, and I usually keep the class feature. But its nearly impossible to keep the flavor of the mounted knight in armor when their mount just simply trots along beside them. If they could be ridden, well, that would be a horse of a different color.

There are certain mounts that would make sense to have this as (lions, drakkensteeds, to name a few), but not every paladin will want those, nor will it fit into all themes, while something like the Celestial Weapon does fit with the very core of how a paladin operates.

[Mayhem]

A celestial animal companion that is appropraite to the paladin's deity of choice might be an interesting alternative.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

The problem with animal companion is its really just not in the flavor of a paladin. The animal companion approach is also reserved for the Holy Liberators, the chaotic good paladin prestige class. As useful as an animal might be (for certain deities), overall it just wouldn't seem right.

If no one has a anything against the Celestial Weapon, does it seem like something that could feasibly be added? No real coding or scripting required.

[Mulu]

I think the celestial weapon is a brilliant idea, and seems well balanced right out of the gate as it matches well with the Greater Magic Weapon spell in enhancement bonus at X level. Paladins really get the shaft in CRPG style gaming, almost as bad as rogues, so anything to make up for that seems like a good idea.

[Brokenbone]

Any chance of getting transcription / scan of that part of Dragon #349? Page 90something?

I've read a little discussion here and there on different forums (Enworld and elsewhere) about variant paladin abilities, though someone mentioned if you lose / bust your Celestial Weapon, you're waiting a year and a day, not 30 days. I obviously don't have that issue of Dragon. It would be good to see exactly how that implementation was suggested before seeing how it'd fit into ALFA's world (especially as we have such a fluid clock, which permits human PCs to be forever fit and in their prime, and elven PCs to have grandkids).

Also note there are apparently other "variant" Paladin abilities in different sourcebooks, such as something about Charging Smite (?) in PHB2, and there was a pretty godawful class option thing given in Dungeonscapes about summoning different kinds of buffing "Divine Spirits" (excerpt at WOTC here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn ... 09a&page=1).

Basically I suggest canvassing some more of the published stuff, with all its pros and cons, since there's definitely more than just one Dragon Magazine article which has taken on the topic.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

The variant is found in Dragon Magazine # 349, Pg. 93.

Sword of Celestia, +N – Gain a Celestial-forged weapon (does not need to be a sword) of great beauty. You may summon or dismiss the weapon as a Free
Action. You may summon your weapon (1 + Wisdom modifier) times per day (min 1). You must give an oath to never sell or loan your weapon to anyone.
You may upgrade the weapon as if you had Feat: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (still costs gold & XP). If damaged, the weapon may be repaired with normal
healing spells. If destroyed, you must wait 1 year + 1 day to have a new one forged.

So it is a year + 1 day, and the summoning is wisdom based (much more balanced than Cha based, which a paladin would be able to do all day long).

[SwordSaintMusashi]

The variant is found in Dragon Magazine # 349, Pg. 93.

Sword of Celestia, +N – Gain a Celestial-forged weapon (does not need to be a sword) of great beauty. You may summon or dismiss the weapon as a Free
Action. You may summon your weapon (1 + Wisdom modifier) times per day (min 1). You must give an oath to never sell or loan your weapon to anyone.
You may upgrade the weapon as if you had Feat: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (still costs gold & XP). If damaged, the weapon may be repaired with normal
healing spells. If destroyed, you must wait 1 year + 1 day to have a new one forged.

So it is a year + 1 day, and the summoning is wisdom based (much more balanced than Cha based, which a paladin would be able to do all day long).

As for the other variants (which there are so many), I left out specifically charging smite (PHB2) and Celestial Spirits (Dungeonscape) for not only scripting problems (there's no charge action in NWN2), but for balance as well (Celestial Spirits is INCREDIBLY overpowered, giving you by the end Diehard, Endurance, +1/3 level to attack/damage for party, fast healing 10 for party, instant lay on hands to first party member to drop below 0, to name a few.). I was trying to look at it from a point of view of something easy to do, flavorful, and yet keeping in tune with the level of power of the class (as Mulu mentioned, Celestial Weapon was made to scale with proper power of the level the weapon self-upgrades).

[Munmun]

All the other class variants are either too overpowered or impossible to implement in a CRPG. The spirits are both.

The weapon seems like the way to go.

[Brokenbone]

Thanks!

I also found the PHB2 thing now, page 53... turns out it was only one option listed as a Mount replacement, 5th level, same deal.

Charging Smite:

"Beginning at 5th level, if you Smite Evil on a charge attack, you deal an extra 2 points of damage per paladin level to any evil creature you hit (in addition to the normal bonus damage dealt by a smite). If the charge attack misses, the smite ability is not considered used. This is a supernatural ability."

Some guy seems to be trying to code it, but in conjunction with a bunch of Spell Compendium stuff as well like Rhino's Rush and other paladin specific stuff, seems still a work in progress. Links:
http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/vi ... &forum=109
http://nwn2customcontent.wikidot.com/paladin3

He (or she) also seems to be working on Divine Spirit, that Dungeonscapes thing mentioned above.

...

Anyhow, guess that's three published variants so far, are there more out there?

[dergon darkhelm]

I tried two different things in one PnP campaign (which was jsut a glorifed dungeon crawl making a mount impractical)


a) Increase the number of Smite Evil attempts per day. ((maybe 1 every other plevel +CAH mod or something))

b) Bonus Feats ala the fighter......I know this is boring but it was easy to do.... 2 feats at 3, 6, 9, 12, etc instead of 1

I gave my players the choice of either one..... no one decided to play a Pally so I never saw it implemented.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

There are literally dozens. Crystal Keep keeps a pretty good records of every variant of every class published by WotC (its what helped me find the number and page for thr Celestial Weapon variant). Alot of the other ones are ways to take different mounts (Drakkensteed Mount, Dragon Magic) or completely different paladins (Paladin of Freedom, Slaughter, Tyranny, Unearthed Arcana) and ones for every alignment (A NG, N, NE paladin with varrying abilities), not to mention the dozens of alternates presented in Champions of Valor (Alternate features for EVERY deity who has a paladin).

Not sure if you can tell yet, but my favorite class is the paladin.