Resting and Spell restoration durations?

[AcadiusLost]

Now that we're getting into Beta, let's revisit the rest and spell restoration durations. We'll be including restdurations.2da in the next hak, so the jump from a default 5-second Obsidian-style rest to a 120 second ALFA one is going to be pretty noticeable.

I'm of the opinion that this is a change players will adapt to fairly readily, though I could be wrong on that, we'll see how it plays.

What will probably need addressing though, is the timing for divine and arcane spell restoration. Currently it's at a 1 IG hour duration, which I think is from PnP rules. With the current time compression, that means the better part of 10 minutes waiting to get spells back. Unless we add a mechanic to waive the rest requirement (do we have one yet?) if they've been logged out more than 24 game-hours, then we can tack the 2 minute rest on to that time as well- that becomes a detriment to play IMHO. With current settings, it will only get worse if we extend the time compression.

Should we try 0.25 game-hours for the next ACR update? Other thoughts?

[Mulu]

Well, if you're going to use PnP times, why not use PnP methods? Nobody sits around a gaming table for 8 hours waiting for their peeps to wake up, or even for 10 minutes. Have the rest option drop down a menu that gives multiple rest options in time and goal (rest until healed, rest until spells rememorized, etc), and have that time tied into the probability of a random encounter when in an unsafe area (since in a safe area it's totally irrelevant), but otherwise pass in a few seconds, the same amount of time it takes to say "I rest for the night."

Comic book time, coded. Beats the heck out of a game killing ten minute wait. Long rest times = more afk and less rp.

You could also tie in a supply requirement for resting in unsafe areas like the Supply Based Resting system, thus preventing spam resting, since that is the actual goal here, though a limit on rests per game clock does the same thing.

[Grand Fromage]

Yeah, I don't think having to sit around for ten real minutes is going to add anything except major annoyance. There are better ways to do limited resting.

The drop-down menu idea is a good one if it can be done. We can customize the UI however we wish, so it's just a matter of scripting. I'll admit near total ignorance there.

[ç i p h é r]

That's the best solution for single player or campaign play, but unless we don't mind insta-rest during CvC situations, it won't work well in a multi player PW.

[AcadiusLost]

Rest locations are already enforced by the engine currently, though we should consider implementing the camping parts of the system before we get much further. Resting will be 2 minutes- while certainly a break in the action, it's not as disruptive as a 10 minute block.

The spell praying / spellbook studying ones are currently the long ones (7 min or so?), those should be curtailed I think, though one can emote and RP through those somewhat (unless, heaven forbid, you accidentally move and break the attempt).

[Mulu]

That's the best solution for single player or campaign play, but unless we don't mind insta-rest during CvC situations, it won't work well in a multi player PW.

It should be easy enough to make rest unavailable if you make a PC hostile. Alternatively, passing a rule that says "resting during a CvC conflict allows the option of killing your PC in its sleep" would be just as effective.

I think even 2 minutes is unnecessarily long. What's the goal of the downtime? It's not long enough to interrupt solo adventuring or give a simulation for a passed night, but it's length doesn't add anything to the primary purpose of allowing a PC to recharge. Remember, in an adventuring group resting happens in shifts, so you multiply that rest time by the number of shifts. That can easily become 8-10 minutes of downtime.

[ç i p h é r]

I think you'll find all the reasons here (to avoid rehashing and restating them):

http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... hp?t=27478

I think we did away with random encounters because monsters will probably be walking around the area already (spawned in on area enter).

Now if the sentiments have shifted on timer durations, we can adjust but I think it would be prudent to first read through the original thread if you have not already done so.

[Mulu]

Read it and heard it all before. The only goal seems to be an empty nod towards simulationism, and they don't take into account resting in shifts which multiplies the downtime.

[Amar]

while we are at it, lets script bladders. and give people diseases if they dont have their character go to nature's call every 6 in-game hours.

[ç i p h é r]

lol. If you can create the particle effect, we can add that in.

On a more serious note, the issue isn't about simulation. It's about requiring a reasonable passage of time over which the player returns to full strength. This eliminates the possibility of CvC flash naps and introduces the possibility of some in-game consequence for resting (like a coup de grace by an assassin who has been stalking you for a day, for example). As a result, things like fatigue/sleeping in armor, setting up watch, hiring bodyguards, etc will actually be relevant factors in the game.

Picture this: PC1 and PC2 start a fight. PC1 is seriously wounded and runs - combat ends. PC2 is hurt as well but follows. PC1 eludes PC2 in the nearby woods. PC1 insta-rests while PC2 is searching (out of sight). PC1 is now back at full strength.

Is that ideal for a persistent world? Now you could say that there's a chance for an encounter in there, but that probability has to be pretty low if you expect players to be able to actually rest. Does the rest time have to be 2 minutes? No. I think it could be much lower and still achieve its primary purpose.

p.s. What's the Supply Based Resting system? We're using player based timers to enforce limits, but I'm curious what this is.

[Swift]

Is that ideal for a persistent world? Now you could say that there's a chance for an encounter in there, but that probability has to be pretty low if you expect players to be able to actually rest. Does the rest time have to be 2 minutes? No. I think it could be much lower and still achieve its primary purpose.

So why are we pushing for 2 minutes in the first place?

When you can rest in PnP for a full night in the time it takes the DM to say "You rest all night" increasing the length of resting just because someone might exploit it during CvC (which does not happen all that often anyway and would be discovered from the logs) does little more than annoy all the legitimate players.

[ç i p h é r]

So why are we pushing for 2 minutes in the first place?

When you can rest in PnP for a full night in the time it takes the DM to say "You rest all night" increasing the length of resting just because someone might exploit it during CvC (which does not happen all that often anyway and would be discovered from the logs) does little more than annoy all the legitimate players.

PnP is a campaign oriented world where 1 DM controls 1 party. There are no rules for dealing with multi-DM, multi-party, multi-campaign worlds that can, and do, overlap. Creating a world that is completely DM-driven is NOT what we are striving for with NWN2. Thus, we need to construct rules to satisfy these kinds of conditions, or as you say, force DMs to spend their time policing players.

To put things into perspective, if waiting a minute once every 2.8 RL hours is a serious impediment to fun for you, then policing players certainly can't be an option either.

[Runestaff]

Picture this: PC1 and PC2 start a fight. PC1 is seriously wounded and runs - combat ends. PC2 is hurt as well but follows. PC1 eludes PC2 in the nearby woods. PC1 insta-rests while PC2 is searching (out of sight). PC1 is now back at full strength.

The problem with many of these gloom-and-doom forecasts of player exploits is the fact that ALFA1 has a resting system that isn't anywhere close to two minutes, and I would bet money that none of these apparent exploits are happening now, nor that they happened when player numbers were significantly higher. That begs the question of whether any of this expanded resting duration stuff is even necessary.

If you're trying to implement a hedge against potential exploit, then all the system appears to be is a solution in search of a problem. If it's an attempt to introduce "realism" or PnP accuracy, that's fine, but ALFA is not PnP.

I'm not arguing that expanding the resting duration is necessarily bad, but the discussion I've seen of it appears to be somewhat arbitrary. Why is 120 seconds superior to, say, 30 seconds? If ALFA is falling into its usual habits of adopting policy by assuming the worst of all possible player behavior, I don't see this as a benefit.

Adding features like Fortitude saves when resting in heavy armor and using spellbook objects to learn spells are good and enhance game play. Forcing players to literally sit around for several minutes doing nothing could prove to be otherwise. If this isn't already planned, I'd suggest playtesting expanded rest durations extensively before committing to a set number.

[ç i p h é r]

Runestaff:

This eliminates the possibility of CvC flash naps and introduces the possibility of some in-game consequence for resting (like a coup de grace by an assassin who has been stalking you for a day, for example). As a result, things like fatigue/sleeping in armor, setting up watch, hiring bodyguards, etc will actually be relevant factors in the game.

Does the rest time have to be 2 minutes? No. I think it could be much lower and still achieve its primary purpose.

BTW Swift, I'm not pushing for 2 minutes. That seemed to be the duration individuals who participated in the discussion (at the time we wrote up the requirements) wanted. If I've staked a position at all it's against INSTANT resting for multi-player persistent worlds. That's all.

And yes, we are play testing (on Indio's BETA server). Fee free to download the PWC and participate so you can offer relevant feedback. It's more productive than just arguing for the sake of it. If you'll reread AL's original post, this thread IS a discussion about finding appropriate durations.

[AcadiusLost]

All these systems are flexible and adjustable as we go along, and certainly Beta test feedback will be taken. I don't see these from a CvC balance perspective at all, but instead as a way to help add more depth to the game.

One thing to note, is that with my latest tweaks to the system, PCs aren't going to have to be resting much during normal play. If you are logged out for more than an IG day (2.8 RL hours / 25 game-hours), you will find your PC fully rested (and spells restored) on your next login. Even better for classes without healing: you'll actually have base healing from all the rests your PC would have been doing while you were offline. (so, no more logging in for the evening, and still having the wounds and/or missing spells from last week's session, then spending ages trying to find a restable area to OOC restore them).

So, resting in-game is going to tend to come as part of a long session- for example an extended dungeon crawl, in which the party sets up camp in a "safe" cavern to recoup their abilities before pressing onward or turning back- in cases like this, the resting time makes this an immursive situation- DMs (or the spawn system) have the chance to bring encounters in, there is time for RP between members on watch- it actually feels like a significant event, as opposed to an OOC mechanic. I've backed the praying and studying times down to a minute and 45 seconds for initial testing, I'd like to see how the 2-minute rest plays in Beta before we dismiss it.

Nothing is written in stone, but I would encourage folks to test these systems with an open mind- we're not trying to nerf the fun out of the game- all these changes are intended to add to the game experience, and avoid the need for OOC mechanics like dropping to your knees in the middle of town with ZzZzZz over your head, to remove a spell effect. Hopefully we should have these systems rolled out onto the Betas in the next week or two so people can build some impressions of them.