To Name Or Not To Name

Ideas and suggestions for game mechanics and rules.
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Mayhem
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Post by Mayhem »

So in order to recognise the monster that's (eg) running towards you with a great-axe, you have to right-click on it and select identify?

:?

Edit: only to be told "you can't identify this creature".

Ah, there we go. After repeated attempts, I recognised a kobold fighter, a kobold scout, and a kobold runt.

***

What dicates how hard it is to recognise the monster? Its level? Your level? Your Knowledge: Monsters skill?

I really don't like this. If recognising a monster is going to require a skill check of some kind, it should at the very least be automatic.

The results currently are just as meta as having the creatures labelled when you first see them. Except now its a hassle - it is less immersive, not more.

And the biggest issue I had is still the fact that the combat stats are utterly meaningless. You don't know which of the creatures you have hit, nor which of them has hit you.
Last edited by Mayhem on Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ç i p h é r »

Mayhem wrote:So in order to recognise the monster that's (eg) running towards you with a great-axe, you have to right-click on it and select identify?

:?

Edit: only to be told "you can't identify this creature".
In its current form, yes. If you don't recognize it, you obviously won't know what it is unless you make a successful knowledge check. Now as I said, this a rather basic implementation at the moment, but it could evolve into a more "automated" one whereby the check is performed for you once you perceive the creature. We could also track what players are already familiar with and what they are not so rerolling knowledge checks won't be necessary, and perhaps labelling the creatures once someone identifies it to ease the communication among players in a potentially hostile situation (some generic label could be used for the sake of the combat log where nobody knows what the creature is).

Also, going beyond beta, don't discount the value of scouting - or having a scout around - in your adventures. If you simply wander around bumping into things, you probably won't have the time to react or prepare for what's out there.

Edit: It's presently a LORE skill check based on the monsters CR. Once we add in knowledge skills, it could be one of knowledge local, knowledge nature, or knowledge dungeoneering.
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Post by ç i p h é r »

Mayhem wrote:The results currently are just as meta as having the creatures labelled when you first see them. Except now its a hassle - it is less immersive, not more.
How so? You didn't know what the creature actually was until your character performed an in-game skill check.
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Mayhem
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Post by Mayhem »

ç i p h é r wrote:
Mayhem wrote:The results currently are just as meta as having the creatures labelled when you first see them. Except now its a hassle - it is less immersive, not more.
How so? You didn't know what the creature actually was until your character performed an in-game skill check.
Because it tells you its a Kobold Fighter.

The fact its a kobold, I can see. Any experienced *player* (not character) will see its a kobold. Hiding the creature race penalises inexperienced players, not inexperienced characters.

The fact its a fighter - how do I know that? Not giving out info like that is the only good reason for hiding the creature name in the first place.

***

The script also doesn't take into account (how can it?) of the number of times a PC has encountered this creature before. My character could see 3 creatures standing next to each other, all 3 foot tall bipedal lizards with long snouts, and could only identify *one* of them as a kobold, with no clue as to what the others might be?
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Post by ç i p h é r »

The term "fighter" is not analogous to the fighter class. It could as well be Kobold Warrior. How does your character know? He read a book. He's lived there long enough to know. His father taught him. Take your pick.

The "how" doesn't honestly matter, does it Mayhem? It's the mechanics of the game. You may as well ask how your character knows how to swing a sword. I've no problem working out a better convention for creature naming - feel free to make a recommendation - but I don't have the time for a philosophical discussion about why the game mechanics work the way they do. Suffice it to say, they just work.

As to the point about tracking, no the script doesn't do that now, but as mentioned above it can. The fact that your character doesn't know something with absolute certainty doesn't mean you don't have a clue. We don't need a script to tell players what they *think* a creature is, just what they *know* it is.
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Mayhem
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Post by Mayhem »

Maybe I'm missing something about the intention, here. But so far, removing the creature name whilst the *model* is still visible serves only to inconvenience inexperienced players, and make the battle-report unreadable.

I'd rather go back to seeing the creature names, but if this system is here to stay then:

1) Use the monster rarity, not its CR, and add in a bonus for creatures that are "famous" - not many folk have seen a dragon but I reckon most would recognise one if they did.

2) Make it automatic, so that no player action is required.

3) Make it take 10 rather than roll randomly, so that a character capable of recognising a kobold will always recognise kobolds.

4) Rangers should automatically recognise their favoured enemy. As should any character of a race that gets a training bonus vs a given race.

5) Character level should factor in - as it stands an ordinary fighter might reach 10th level having fought hundreds of different creatures but be unable to recognise a goblin whilst a 1st wizard who has never been outside his masters tower before might recognise everything he comes accross.

If possible, it should take into account previous encounters with the creature type.

6) If this is going to require skill points, the results have got to be useful - some estimation of the creatures relative power, perhaps.
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Post by Dorn »

Ummm

Sounds awsome.

but i reckon we try and make the server(s) work first before getting over complicated on these scripts.

My personal preference would be

Sneaky kobald - Scout
Kobald ARCHER - .....archer (he has a bow afterall)
Tough kobald - Grunt
Armoured Kobald - Fighter
Robed Kobald - Wizard/Cleric
Huge Kobald - Chief

No need for complicated scripting or anything.

This worked prefectly on servers in alfa1 why make it more complex? We rely on peoples honesty in not using meta SO much so lets continue to. If it's really rare and someone has lore/exp 0 then the DM can pull them up for being familiar with all of the creatures vital statistics.

Maybe allow builders to get on with the core building and so on instead?
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Post by indio »

lol

Cipher's not making our lives difficult at all Dorn, you crotchety old bastard. All I'm doing is building. Installing this took about 3 minutes, and it's an interesting idea. But it's not something I'm an experienced enough player with to make comment about, which is why I think you'll see cipher finds Mayhem's feedback useful.

But it's not a hassle, and I like experimenting with new ideas. Souvarine and Darren have made these mobs and gone to the trouble of naming them, and updating them is not hard, so it's worth exploring for a bit.
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Post by Swift »

I have not jumped on myself, but would it be possible to store variables on the character for each mob that is regularly encountered so that, for example, once the variable gets to 10 (ie you have seen the thing 10 times) the script grants a bonus to knowledge for the check? Just an idea to simulate having experience with certain creatures
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Mayhem
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Post by Mayhem »

I'm actually with Dorn, in as much as I would much prefer to have the creatures named with descriptive but non-meta names, and leave the rest to roleplay.

My comments were very much on the lines of "Well, if we must use a mechanical recognition system, then it needs to take this into account."

*****

Sorry Indio, we've rather taken your update thread off topic.
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Post by Dorn »

crotchety? old!? you can talk grandpa!

(bastard....maybe fair enough;) )
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Post by ç i p h é r »

Thanks for the suggestions, Mayhem.

On point 5, as with any skill check, level does partially factor in. The higher the level of the player, the more ranks in the skill they can have, but it doesn't forgo the need to invest in that skill. If level was applied directly to skill checks, then any high level character would have this knowledge regardless of what they've faced or how much they've invested in the skill. Intelligence also factors into knowledge checks, which can increase with level. Factoring in prior experience with the creature certainly seems reasonable to me. From the SRD:
Favorable and Unfavorable Conditions

Some situations may make a skill easier or harder to use, resulting in a bonus or penalty to the skill modifier for a skill check or a change to the DC of the skill check.

The chance of success can be altered in four ways to take into account exceptional circumstances.

1. Give the skill user a +2 circumstance bonus to represent conditions that improve performance, such as having the perfect tool for the job, getting help from another character (see Combining Skill Attempts), or possessing unusually accurate information.
2. Give the skill user a –2 circumstance penalty to represent conditions that hamper performance, such as being forced to use improvised tools or having misleading information.
3. Reduce the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task easier, such as having a friendly audience or doing work that can be subpar.
4. Increase the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task harder, such as having an uncooperative audience or doing work that must be flawless.

Conditions that affect your character’s ability to perform the skill change the skill modifier. Conditions that modify how well the character has to perform the skill to succeed change the DC. A bonus to the skill modifier and a reduction in the check’s DC have the same result: They create a better chance of success. But they represent different circumstances, and sometimes that difference is important.
A +2 circumstance bonus (and posssibly +4 if needed) reflecting the amount of prior experience will make these checks easier.

Also from the SRD, to give you an idea of the relevant skills:
* Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
* Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
* Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
* Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
* History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
* Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
* Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
* Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities)
* Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
* The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)
We obviously take a lot for granted. :lol:

On point 6, by relative power, do you mean challenge rating? That might be interesting to reveal so parties could know whether they were in above their heads or not - something any self respecting scout should be able to advise. Any thoughts on this from others? I think it makes quite a bit of sense actually.

p.s. Thanks to whoever moved this out of Indio's beta thread and thanks for being so willing to use your server as a test bed for our ideas Indio.
Last edited by ç i p h é r on Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nyarlathotep
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Post by Nyarlathotep »

This seems interesting and potentially cool but was wondering if it would be possible to tie the difficulty of the knowledge check to the individual creatures rather than a base CR check? Mainly because some of the more recent DnD books have been providing the actual DC checks needed to identify the creatures and while I don't know what actual model they use to determine the difficulty its not CR (ie Hordes of the Abyss lists the DC to identify the CR 10 Chasme as 20 which is the same DC as for identifying the CR 8 Dyubbuk and Yochlol). This would also allow us to use canon checks when available if this is possible and to adjust difficulty for unique or alternate specimens.

Also is it possible to provide different levels of information, perhaps the result of higher sucess on checks or checks of different types. That is to say it might be fairly easy to know that you are facing an orc and not a hobgoblin or gnoll but knowing that it was an orc berserk or shaman would be significantly more difficult.
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Post by ç i p h é r »

Yes, absolutely. We can be specific about the DC required to identify a creature and limit approximations to those we don't have DC information on (namely NPCs).

Different levels of information is possible, but it would be easier to just factor that into the DC for the individual creature. A hobgoblin would be easy to identify. A hobgoblin shaman a bit harder. And so on. Not quite the same thing, but it keeps us from having to figure out a more complex naming scheme or storing additional data on the blueprints. Does that seem like a fair compromise, Nyar?
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Post by Nyarlathotep »

Seems pretty cool to me then, wish I had an NWN2 capable computer to check it out.
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