Scripted Alignment Changes

[dergon darkhelm]

Was just thinking about this a bit -----

many static quests and dialogue options cause alignment shifting and some I agree with
while I take issues with the reasoning behind others.


Perhaps the builders might have already reached concensus on this but if not perhaps a bit of dialogue might help focus:

My particular thought is that alignment changes should only occur when an acts that are obviously lawful/chaotic/good/evil are repeated over time (as opposed to isolated events).

Also, there should be broad range of actions in the middle that while they imply something about a character's personality, do not warrant any alignment change.


Foe example I'll use evil:

D&D evil should be the evil of nightmares ....consorting with demons and devils, perform dark rituals, human sacrifice etc.

I've seen some scripted dialogue on statics where trying to squeez a few extra gold out of a farmer for a reward can cause an alignment shift toward evil.

That kind of "mildly socially unpalatable" behavior shouldn't be evil in a fantasy setting.


Thoughts?

[ç i p h é r]

I agree in that there are varying degrees of acts that can influence alignment. In most cases, a single act shouldn't change alignment until or unless enough similar acts have been commited to cross that threshold. In NWN, alignment is scored across 100 points with 50 representing neutral.

Most alignment altering actions will just increment or decrement along this 100 point scale, but I believe there are some instances where a shift would occur automatically. Lawful character stealing or murdering in cold blood. Evil character sacrificing themselves to save another. It would have to be an act so radically opposed by their alignment to cause an immediate shift. I think such tests should exist on our servers as well as those of minor consequence.

[Lusipher]

Personally..I like alignment shifts. I dont mind when a DM shifts my alignment if I act different from my current alignment and also there are items that can cause dramatic alignment shifts and I think they should be allowed in game. I can give an example of one to a point:

This item will only effect a person if they look upon it. If they do their alignment does a total reverse to the opposite end. They will act accordingly even if its against their Gods tenants. They cannot be released from the power of the idol unless a certain spell is cast upon them. From there they will be immune from the idol effects for 24 hrs and unless they look upon the idol again.

Things like this could be serious fun

This item costs a buttload to make but its worth it if you can corrupt an entire monastery or something like that

[dergon darkhelm]

Don't get me wrong ...I'm not opposed to alignment shifts. As a matter of fact I am strongly in favor of DMs adjusting alignment of PC's over time. It is a necessity.

What I just trying to find was a set of criteria for when an alignment shift (and to what degree) would be given when it is part of scripted event, and to express my opinion that if alignment changes are scripted they should be for major and obvious actions.

Also ........I forgot to bring it up in my first post. Did NWN2 fix the "whole party takes an alignment hit for the actions of the one PC" thing?

[Audark]

I've said it before here and I'll say it again, alignment debates are endless voids where nothing can ever be truly decided upon and agreed to.

To try to set up any kind of 'standard' is borderline impossible because it will eb argued endlessly by PCs who have different motivations than the alignment shift they are hit with.

I personally am in favour of DMs changing alignment to suit the RP, but I have found it murky at best for static quests to alter alignment. Doing a job for a lawful authority does not necessarily make your character lawful, it all depends on motivation and methods.

Even a quest like saving someones baby without reward does not make you good in every situation, what if it was done by an evil PC with a goal in mind to infiltrate a good organization.

Thats not even getting into deciding what is more important for deciding alignment, motivation and state of mind or actual actions.

I will be pushing for more DMed alignment changes in nwn2, where more direct 'alignment question' type situations occur in plots but I don't believe in linking alignment to static content. It's a 'living' world we're creating and alignment is something fluid thats determined by DMs and their players.

[fluffmonster]

the issue is not whether alignment shifts should happen, not whether a single standard for alignment shifts should be written up. The issue is whether a script should give out alignment shifts, whether the rigid execution written into the machine can make the judgement. I think usually the answer is no. What I would kind of like to see would be a limit on the alignment shift a static can give, and when i say 'limit' i'm thinking in the range of one or two alignment points.

I'm all for DM alignment shifts. Scripted alignment shifts, not much.

[Veilan]

What fluffykins said.

[witch]

dm shifts yes and even that is iffy based on diff views.. scripted i dont really like... especially because doing some statics could be for ulterior motives..

[dergon darkhelm]

Good .......... I was trying to be diplomatic in the way I phrased my initial post......but now that I can get on the bandwagon


I am opposed to scripted alignment changes and would that they wouldn't be included except in extreme circumstances ( cold blooded murder, pact with the devil etc)

[ç i p h é r]

I don't think scripted shifts are as big a dilemma as some seem to think. Static quests are completely self contained. A player's plots will have absolutely no bearing on static quests or vice versa. It's not as if fulfilling a static quest would validate any pretenses a PC has put up or that by "pretending" to be something you are not, you can take the quest beyond the boundaries of its programming. These quests are offered by NPCs who are not involved in the interpersonal relationships a PC has established with other players on the server or with DMs.

So I disagree. Alignment changes for STATIC QUESTS should be very easy to determine. If you hit a static quest, you're not acting out of some ulterior purpose. You're acting precisely within the parameters made available to you by the builder or scripter. Anything less and you're inviting players to hit static quests irrespective of their alignments and with complete impunity, although they could easily be programmed to offer choices in-line with player alignment to just sidestep this whole discussion.

[Veilan]

Well, I would tend to agree to your view, cipher - personally I don't care much about alignment, since we play characters and not alignments.

Also, an "alignment hit" doesn't at all mean someone compromised his character's character (yeah), it just means they played how they believe their toon would behave, and find out in RL... it's hardly consistent what road we take, in fact, situations and circumstances dictate our moral and ehtical behaviour far more powerfully than most are willing to admit.

However, the DnD game mechanics force us to use it as a "hard fact" due to several requirements for class skills, advances or abilities. And suddenly, here you are forced to play "consistent" with your alignment which tries to dictate how your character would act or penalize him, and with a script, you don't have the chance to reason out why in fact it may not warrant a penalty. Not that any two people agree on alignment very often, but I do trust a DM to have the ability to put the character's choice into context, thus actual accounting for the situational and circumstantial aspects which in fact are needed to make any judgment on the morality or ethicality of the action in question.

Hence foof's suggestion seems the most reasonable, and the most easily enforced one.

[Magonushi]

Too bad many classes are restricted by alignment and often alignment shifts done by scripts aren't balanced.

What I mean by this is, if I have a true neutral barbarian (feels some loyalty to working with local authorities but loves freely roaming the wild) what happens each time I complete a little work for the militia? +1 to lawful adds up eventually and I am pretty sure there won't be any +1 to chaotics for wandering the wilderness. Basically by adhering to his alignment my barb is eventually forced into an alignment change because the scripts can't cover everything. And unlike some other classes this will force the character to have someone realign him after a lengthy period of discussion with a DM. [Either that or he will just start busting in doors or some other chaotic script until his alignment changes.]

If you thought XP farming was immersion breaking just wait for the Alignment farming.

I vote no on scripted Alignment changes.

[Grand Fromage]

Scripted alignment changes, except in very rare circumstances (eg, casting a spell with the [Evil] descriptor giving evil points), should never be done. DM judgment is needed to determine what alignment changes are appropriate for a situation.

[HEEGZ]

Fluff and GF pretty much summed up what I was thinking.

[witch]

Cipher

If you hit a static quest, you're not acting out of some ulterior purpose. You're acting precisely within the parameters made available to you by the builder or scripter. Anything less and you're inviting players to hit static quests irrespective of their alignments and with complete impunity

its fairly easy to sum up a dozen examples why for instance someone would work for the guard and bring thugs to justice or rescue some kids from the sewers and be of evil alignment.

Blackguard working to infiltrate the guards and building up some credit.. so he can carry out his planned mission.
the static would give good and lawful points because thats how his actions would be viewed.

and thats the keyword i think "viewed". Alignment is a different thing then reputation and i think a lot of statics mix those two up. Hence my aversion to static alignment shifts