Experience for random-monster hunters

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:22 pm

If we set up random spawns from which we can get XP, but *only* by killing them, we are actively rewarding players who create combat-based characters, and offering no reward to those who create characters based around any one of a myriad of other concepts.

Why?

Unless there are an equal number of experience points available for non-DM'd non-combat encounters in which other characters can utilise their unique skills - whatever they might be - we are stating quite clearly that the most valid character in ALFA is the one that has the ability and the motivation to go and hunt down random monsters.

Fie on you pacifists, you dedicated healers, you social charmers, your musicians, you traders. You are less valuable to us than our monster slayers, as evidenced by the way we reward them more than we reward you.

Why?

Why, in a PW that purports to place role-play above all other things, do we want to promote this sort of character?

I am not saying that such behaviour cannot be IC.

I am not saying that somehow the player of Mathilda the Gnomish Bardess (who daren't leave the town on her own in case she gets eaten by a bat) is a better roleplayer than Throgga the Half-Orc Barbarianess (who hunts down every goblin she possibly can because she believes it keeps the town safer).

But I am saying that the characters should have, in the absence of a DM, an equal chance to earn XP. Otherwise ALFA is saying that one type of character is better than the other.

How do we give them an equal chance for earnign XP? Either we stop rewarding Throgga for her monster-hunting, or start rewarding Mathilda for her non-monster hunting strength, wherever that may lie.

Unfortunately, there are as many different non-combat concepts as there are character combinations, so the latter is exremely difficult to achieve. Removing random monster XP seems to be the only practical option.

It can be replaced by statics that can be solved by brute force, but there should be plenty of alternatives, either in the way the static is solved or in the statics that are available.

dergon darkhelm · Post by **dergon darkhelm** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:29 pm

How do we give them an equal chance for earnign XP?

1)RP exp scripts used regularly.

2)Many repeatable low reward statics.

((then the conflict won't be "which class of PC" gets more exp. it will then become "which player type" (the 30 hour a week guy or the campaigner) gets more. ))

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:33 pm

((then the conflict won't be "which class of PC" gets more exp. it will then become "which player type" (the 30 hour a week guy or the campaigner) gets more. ))

this wont matter really if you put in an XP cap or level cap. Let folks play till their hearts content, but only let them level up once a month after say lvl 3 or 4.

HEEGZ · Post by **HEEGZ** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:50 pm

This is still D&D though. The risk of death in combat should be rewarded by some small award of XP. From my understanding, a RP script for XP would cover people who choose to emote there way around an encounter. There is always the possibility of sending a log to DMs for an award for some clever RP for a situation. There are going to be lots of ways to gain XP in NWN2 servers so I really don't see how this is that big of an issue.

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:03 pm

You dont always have to give XP either. Awards can be given as new player quests or reputation.

Khazar Stoneblood · Post by **Khazar Stoneblood** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:25 pm

HEEGZ wrote:This is still D&D though. The risk of death in combat should be rewarded by some small award of XP. From my understanding, a RP script for XP would cover people who choose to emote there way around an encounter. There is always the possibility of sending a log to DMs for an award for some clever RP for a situation. There are going to be lots of ways to gain XP in NWN2 servers so I really don't see how this is that big of an issue.

If my halfling thief sneaks by 3 orcs to get from town A to town B, or my dwarven fighter kills 3 orcs to get from town A to town B... aren't both taking equal risk? The dwarf may die in combat, but the thief is MUCH more likely to die if he gets spotted.

Both PC's used their skills to stay alive while navigating a challenge (orcs blocking the road). In theory... shouldn't the XP award be the same? If a wizard casts invisibility to sneak by the orcs or a fireball to kill the orcs... isn't he just using a spell to overcome the challenge provided by the orcs? Shouldn't the award be the same?

It isn't even clever RP. I mean, neither smacking orcs around or sneaking by is particulary heavy RP activity, even with loads of emotes.

Note I don't think we can put a script in to fix this. But I hope that some of the static quests out there do involve skills outside of combat. Loudwater had some of these dealing with specific skills (which was great). WD had the fire extinguishing quest for wizards. I just hope there are more.

I hope that XP is awarded for opening locks or disarming traps (especially the traps, since there is a sizable risk in attempting to disarm a trap). That is every bit as much an encounter with a challenge rating as slaying a monster is. I hope that some statics require some level of persuasion or diplomacy to complete. I hope that most of the statics are based on non-combat abilities since combat PC's have the "monster hunt" option.

But I'll believe it when I see it.

HEEGZ · Post by **HEEGZ** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:37 pm

Like I said, this is D&D, which is a game. Killing things should grant XP. Also, I hope we don't become so anal retentive that every possible source of RP XP must get scripted in. IMO, it all works out in the end. Yeah, someone who kills lots of orcs might get more XP because they are fighting things, while someone who plays the safe route doesn't kill anything... Dunno, I just don't see a problem really. My roleplay usually gets awarded at some point, sometimes it doesn't. I am kind of concerned about this sense of entitlement to XP for roleplay though. A lot of the recent discussion in other threads has been so focused on XP that I think most of the issues which are present are blown completely out of proportion to what they really are. Like I've been saying:

There are systems being created that address most of these concerns already.

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:39 pm

Like I said, this is D&D, which is a game. Killing things should grant XP

regardless of it being D&D you can do something different rather just giving out XP for killing mobs. Other avenues of advancement can be used. It will require some scripting, some out of the box thinking, but it can be done.

HEEGZ · Post by **HEEGZ** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:42 pm

Yeah, it can be handled in so many different ways, I really don't see what the issue is here. Well, other than people not having regular DM coverage.

psycho_leo · Post by **psycho_leo** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:45 pm

Danubus wrote:
Like I said, this is D&D, which is a game. Killing things should grant XP
regardless of it being D&D you can do something different rather just giving out XP for killing mobs. Other avenues of advancement can be used. It will require some scripting, some out of the box thinking, but it can be done.

I don't think he disagrees there. And there are other ways to gain XP. Static quests that don't rely solely on the use of brute force, xp scripts to award RP when there are no DMs, etc. But to think that is possible to script every single way to get out of a dangerous scenario is too much. Its not going to happen.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:44 pm

Awarding XP for killing something is easy. It dies. The killer gets XP. The creature is removed from the game.

Awarding XP for successfully avoiding combat isn't easy. How do you determine success, what do you do with the creatures the player evaded, and how many times can you do this with the same group? There are limits to what we can script based on the API we are given and accuracy is of paramount concern here. Where a "death" event exists on a creature and is triggered when they die, no corresponding "evaded" event is available to us to hook a script to, so a combination of other events will need to be used, none of which would definitively constitue an "evaded" event necessarily. This is the reality we have to contend with, thus once you define what success actually means, we might be able to say if it's possible to implement. You may have to accept that it simply isn't possible.

Now anything can be done with quests, as has been pointed out, and making sure builders put in a variety of quests that put to the test a variety of skills is a reasonable request. The creativity of builders and DMs is the limit there.

Khazar Stoneblood · Post by **Khazar Stoneblood** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:11 pm

Cipher, I don't disagree...

but it is easy to award XP for opening a lock or disarming a trap. And those "encounters" can have challenge ratings in D&D that would warrant XP.

I don't think every lock deserves it.... but ALL traps should involve some XP gain for a disarm. I mean, traps often have as much danger as an monster encounter, and one would think finding and successfully disarming a trap would be something that would add experience to PC from a logical perspective.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:28 pm

That's possible and per canon too.

psycho_leo · Post by **psycho_leo** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:30 pm

Khazar Stoneblood wrote:Cipher, I don't disagree...

I don't think every lock deserves it.... but ALL traps should involve some XP gain for a disarm.

Agreed. If it can be scripted in a way that you only get XP for disarming the same trap once I have no problem with it. But I still think we should be aiming for more sensible static content then scripted xp for everything.

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:01 pm

Khaz - unfortunately, if you can spot a trap once, you know where it is. It's easy to go back and farm it. There is 0 risk of failure unless you're in combat. We could likely override the NWN2 disarm trap function to award XP based upon the trap DC/type, but we'd also need to ensure that DMs were either randomly placing them, or factor in some form of dimret.

I'm sure if somebody wrote up a good system that builders would use, Ronan would put it in...