Able learner revisited

Veilan · Post by **Veilan** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:51 pm

Okay,

another fun little fact I found out. Apparently I'm good at breaking the system, here's the next instance:

The able learner feat (you only have to spend 1 skillpoint per rank in cross-class skills, up to (3+level)/2 ranks) seemed decent enough if it still had the cross-class maximum rank cap. However, if you have any one class with the skill as class skill, the cap gets ignored even on cross-class levels.

This means that if you take one level of say, rogue or bard, and the able learner feat, you will have virtually every skill as a class skill on every futher levelup in any class. This does seem to be a bit over the top.

Cheers,

dergon darkhelm · Post by **dergon darkhelm** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:56 pm

Aye........ dump it or severely modify it.

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:30 pm

Yeah, this was mentioned earlier. Hopefully it will be fixed by the time ALFA goes live.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:14 pm

Its not a bug.

The maximum skill rank a character can have in a skill that is a class skill for any of their classes is, in 3.5, based off their total class ranks.

3.5 SRD wrote:Skills: If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org ... asses.html

Does that mean Able Learner is a problem?

Maybe, maybe not. The average fighter doesn't have enough skill points to keep all his skills maxed out, let alone the skills from another class. Is gaining a dozen or so skills as class skills really worth (for example) losing the of BAB, HP, Feats etc that a fighter taking a single rogue level to benefit from this feat?

In some cases, maybe. In every case? Definately not.

Audark · Post by **Audark** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:04 am

Before this thread denegrates to the same old discussion, I would once again like to point out that a fighter 8/rogue 1 with able learner and reasonable intelligence would indeed have access to maxing out skills such as disable device, which people seem quite concerned over. This is a valid criticism in some cases but I would also remind everyone that the dexterity skills penalties incured by wearing heavy armor and shields severely diminishes even a maxed out disable device/open lock skill.

A finesse fighter in light armor would likely best 'take advantage' of this situation, but what is the harm? A finesse fighter does not seem as terribly incongruous with pursuing trap disarming skills as a tank in fullplate pursuing the same. I would argue that in order to best take advantage of rogue skills, the characters build would already need to be very near that of a rogue in terms of equipment and ability scores. If this is the case then what does it matter which skills the character pursues since they will be in keeping with the overriding character concept even if it is not based entirely on class.

This debate does have merit however and I'd very much like to hear about other instances where this would be a problem other than from a tank/rogue.

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:09 pm

I'd rather just take it as WizX. I don't need full ranks in everything, but I've enough skill points to be a fair hand at almost everything :)

In any case, I agree with Halrin - there's far more min/max combos than this. Additionally, this one leans towards RP skills more than most.

Khazar Stoneblood · Post by **Khazar Stoneblood** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:06 pm

Halrin, you are incorrect.

The only skills that have dex penalties are hide, move silently and tumble. Try building a test PC in NWN2 and you'll see.

A fully armored rogue-1/fighter-X can have maxed out disable device/Open Locks/search (asuming a high enough INT) and much of the rogue's purpose in a party while maintaining their ability as a a front line tank.

Khazar Stoneblood · Post by **Khazar Stoneblood** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:52 pm

Other combos (not saying they're problems, just combinations where able learner helps a lot).

monk-1/wiz-x : Already a great combo do to the monk's XP and save gains, with able learner the wizard can max out stealth as well, and get another AC bonus at .

rogue-1/ranger-x : With the 3.5 rules for rangers (6 sp/lvl in particular), you essentially spend 1 feat and a level of rogue to have a PC who performs all of the non-combat rogue duties just as well as a pure rogue would, with more HP and better BAB. Kind of a combat heavy rogue PC.

ranger-1/barb-x : Basically a stealth barbarian if you take able learner.

All in all, I'm not sure this really makes the other classes a lot more powerful, so much as it might make a pure rogue a lot less common. Unless you really want the sneak attack damage, the primary purposes of a rogue are scouting and trap/lock handling. Any PC with 5+ total skill points can handle that pretty much as capably as a pure rogue could(hide/MS/OL/DD/Search) if they take able-learner.

Is that a problem? I don't know. But it probably is something to look at.

dergon darkhelm · Post by **dergon darkhelm** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:12 pm

I agree-----the major problem is eliminating the role of the standard rogue.

psycho_leo · Post by **psycho_leo** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:08 pm

The only problem I see with this feat is people taking one level of rogue just to take rogue skills as a class skill. But that's about the same problem ww could have with people taking one lvl of ranger for the dual wielding in NWN.

Able learner won't do away with the pure rogues. There's no way a multiclass build can max all the rogue skills, unless he has very high INT scores, which means he will suck at fighting, have very few HP, etc.

So leave it as it is, it is not the rogue replacement feat. And if people start abusing it we deal with it.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:05 am

Lets also bear in mind that peopel are saying "Just a feat" as though they are something you get loads of.

Excluding fighters, and the free one that humans and certain hin get, a 10th level character - which is pretty high for ALFA atm, has what, 4 feats? Giving one of them up for some skills is not a small thing, IMO. Especially for folk looking to get feats with pre-reqs, or get a PRC.

Similarly that "just one level" can be the difference between a powerful special ability or not, and for a spellcaster, can be the difference between being able to cast fireball and not being able to.

AND lets not forget that except for those with the right favoured class, taking one level of rogue for the skills might get you into multi-class XP penalties.

****

Its a great feat for those that have reason to do a 1 lvl multilclass anyway, and whose build includes a decent number of skillpoints, but I don't see it as being so good that everyone will be taking 1 level of rogue

mr duncan · Post by **mr duncan** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:58 am

Mayhem wrote:Lets also bear in mind that peopel are saying "Just a feat" as though they are something you get loads of.

Excluding fighters, and the free one that humans and certain hin get, a 10th level character - which is pretty high for ALFA atm, has what, 4 feats? Giving one of them up for some skills is not a small thing, IMO. Especially for folk looking to get feats with pre-reqs, or get a PRC.

Similarly that "just one level" can be the difference between a powerful special ability or not, and for a spellcaster, can be the difference between being able to cast fireball and not being able to.

AND lets not forget that except for those with the right favoured class, taking one level of rogue for the skills might get you into multi-class XP penalties.

Amen. I feel like chicken little will come cruising thru here screeching about the falling sky if we have another "multiclass PG" thread. If someone wants to sink one of their feats into being a skill monkey... LET THEM. (or if they want to slow their progression in one class down by adding another) We could just as easily do this with/about most feats... think how PG the "cleave" feat is. "everyone wants cleave, it lets you hit an extra time... you HAVE to be a powergamer if you want an extra hit in combat.

I do however think it should be one of the feats you can only take at level 1. Ya just dont one day decide to be a better learner... you are born with it or not, makes for a great level-1 only feat.

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:04 am

Mayhem wrote:Lets also bear in mind that peopel are saying "Just a feat" as though they are something you get loads of.

...and a feat you can only select at 1st level in the ACR. And no, we cannot release the ACR 2das yet, since the 1.04 patch still does not offer custom TLK support, they still will not work

Khazar Stoneblood · Post by **Khazar Stoneblood** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:17 pm

Again, I'm not saying this feat is a problem.

I only brought it up initially in another thread because I look at this feat and realize I'd take it a huge percentage of the time for my PC's, and that I'd almost NEVER play a single class rogue with this skill present.

Is that a problem? I don't know.

I do know that I'd always choose to play a rogue-1/ranger-x with able learner over a pure rogue. Sneak attack/evasion are nice, but I'd rather have my PC who's able to do all the primary non-combat roles of a rogue and has spell casting(including healing), favored enemies, dual wield or bow specialty, bonus toughness feat, a pet wolf, a higher BAB, more HP and a nice +4 wilderness stealth bonus. The best thief won't be a rogue anymore... it will be a rogue-1/ranger-x with able learner.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:42 pm

Khazar Stoneblood wrote:. The best thief won't be a rogue anymore... it will be a rogue-1/ranger-x with able learner.

That depends on how you define best theif, of course.

Yours will be more capable in a stand up fight.

Somebody elses will have more skill points, a vastly superior sneak attack and an extra feat to spend on something theif related rather than combat related.

And yours cannot be certain races without acruing XP penalties.

You may well be a better fighter (no surprise there) he will still be he better theif.