Judging creature strength

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:15 am

After loosing my PC to what basically amounted to a error in judgement of a spawn's strength, I'm thinking we should probably provide some way of judging the power of another creature (well alright, I've always thought this, its just now more present in my mind). NWN1 provides this of course, but ALFA removed that, and I don't think we know what NWN2 will provide. But we DO know NWN2 will allow for a dynamic OnExamine event, so we can replace whatever functionality it comes with if we'd like.

The need for it is, in my mind, relatively simple. There is no way for a PC to have any idea how strong a monster is. NWN2 will allow for scaling and texturing of creatures, but builders don't have to use those. So a PC can encounter a group of monsters which are easily slain (werewolves) and then another similar group which beat the tar out of said PC (werepanthers in my case, though I've seen this the worst with goblins on many servers). Most of the time the PCs realize they are going to get pwned and get away, but this isn't always the case. Sometimes monsters have immobilizing powers or spells, or can simply out-run the PCs. Large crit multipliers can be nasty as well. Given the hugely-higher risk/reward ratio of most static fights vs. DMed ones, it makes sense to me to give PCs a bit of leyway here. Trust me when I say that slaughtering a tribe of CR .5 to 2 goblins only to enter the chieftan's tent and find he is CR 12 is NOT fun

You may say that being able to tell the power difference between two similar-looking creatures isn't realistic, but I don't think D&D's combat system is realistic enough for that to be much of an argument. Sure in real-life a "level 10" bandit would look more or less like a "level 1", but he also wouldn't have 100hp and be able to take a fireball in the face and laugh at you. In addition to that, there are many visible cues we can't account for without giving each creature a unique model, or without a DM present. Even if the models were life-like, there would be things only an experienced adventurer (and no the player himself) might notice, such as the specific spell foci hanging from a socerer's neck, or the curve and length of an enemy's longbow.

I'm a bit on the fence about how to do this. A while back Spider Jones mentioned a PnP mechanic to me of a sense motive check vs. bluff or intimidate, but I can't seem to find that in the DMG. I'll follow this post with the rules if I can find them, though hopefully Spider will chime in.

The good news is, this is probably something thats really easy to implement. And we can provide builders a way to modify or disable the results on the creatures they create.

idoru · Post by **idoru** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:21 am

Sounds good to me. But this is also a design issue - maybe stop making CR 8 goblins and kobolds? If mobs generally conform with the Monster Manual there is some predictability, even though it doesn't really extend to the PC races.

Of course, next problem is that not everyone in ALFA has the MM.

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:28 am

idoru wrote:Sounds good to me. But this is also a design issue - maybe stop making CR 8 goblins and kobolds?

Agreed, that is the ideal solution, but in the end I (as the Tech Admin) have really no say in what a builder builds. If there comes a time where Admin more actively enforces the sort of things individual servers build, then this would be less needed (though I expect this problem will be much diminished come NWN2, with or without a skull-cracking DMA forcing people to build to canon).

In addition there are cases where goblins, kobolds and such should be significantly stronger than the ones presented in the monster manuals.

Also, if we ever get around to making our own or significantly modifying creature AI, code to judge creature strength could be used for some realistic fight/flight scripts. That can have the added benifit of preventing farming by higher level PCs, and its only fair the monsters use the same system as the players.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:39 am

I don't mind, necessarily, having no way to judge a spawns strength - Ideally, though, a custom creature should have something in its description saying how it looks tougher than its peers, or has better quality equipment or whatever.

However, what I do not currently like is the dichotomy whereby *monsters* can judge (and therefore target) the weakest PC effortlessly. - running past dangerous warriors and receiveing AoOs to do so, I might add.

Either everyone should be able to do it, or no one should, PC or NPC alike.

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:29 pm

Mayhem wrote:However, what I do not currently like is the dichotomy whereby *monsters* can judge (and therefore target) the weakest PC effortlessly. - running past dangerous warriors and receiveing AoOs to do so, I might add.

Either everyone should be able to do it, or no one should, PC or NPC alike.

Yup, monsters can judge party strength for the purposes of fight/flight decisions or targeting. I'd prefer it if PCs and NPCs had access to the same mechanics.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:06 pm

Ronan wrote:
Mayhem wrote:However, what I do not currently like is the dichotomy whereby *monsters* can judge (and therefore target) the weakest PC effortlessly. - running past dangerous warriors and receiveing AoOs to do so, I might add.

Either everyone should be able to do it, or no one should, PC or NPC alike.
Yup, monsters can judge party strength for the purposes of fight/flight decisions or targeting. I'd prefer it if PCs and NPCs had access to the same mechanics.

Indeed - its a bit silly to think that if you want to know who the weakest person in a group is purely by observing them in a non-combat environment, you should ask a goblin.

Dorn · Post by **Dorn** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:29 pm

mmm i'm not so sure about this.

Not saying it's wrong just that i have reservations.

Part of what i like about this game is the risk factor and the fact that players need to take necessary IC precautions to address this risk.

If something looks nasty, it probably is. Go ask the local scribe/lorekeeper about it and then go out prepared.

How does this relate to low int player who have very little knowledge of the range of opposition against them in faerun?

I'm not sure if it's just another meta stroke beyond what we already know.

SOmetimes it's 'fun' to go in and get your ass handed to you and have to get the hell out of there to fight another day rather then be able to know your chances of survival beforehand.

Just a thought.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:08 pm

I've always liked the idea. I refer to this as "sizing up" your enemy. It should be possible and should improve with experience. I think something to this effect was added to source books (maybe in one of the supplementals). It could be implemented as a feat with min level/skill/attribute requirements and an improved version made available as well.

Size Up
Int 10

Gain the ability to examine the strengths of your enemies.

Improved Size Up
Int 13
Spot 10

Gain the ability to examine the strengths and weaknesses of your enemies.

Just an example.

Spider Jones · Post by **Spider Jones** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:12 pm

This is a system from Complete Adventurer that uses Sense Motive and Bluff to help a PC determine the strength of a particular opponent. It's based on HD or level, so it won't really give a clear result for all creatures (some creatures of CR 10 might have almost 20 HD, for example), and it usually turns up two of the results rather than a single one.

Opponent's CR / Assess Opponent Result

4 or more less than your level or HD / A pushover
1, 2, or 3 less than your level or HD / Easy
Equal to you level or HD / A fair fight
Equal to your level or HD plus 1, 2, or 3 / A tough challenge
Exceeds your level or HD by 4 or more / A dire threat

It's a Sense Motive check vs the opponents Bluff check, a success means you get two adjacent categories from the simplified "table" above. A success by 10 or more means you get the specific category. If the Bluff is equal or slightly more than your Sense Motive, you gain no information. If the Bluff exceeds your Sense Motive by 5 or more you may get a false impression, believing your opponent is stronger or weaker than he really is (equal chance of either). If the Bluff exceeds your Sense Motive result by 10 or more, your assessement is off by at least two categories (for example, a dire threat might be assessed as a fair fight).

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:25 pm

idoru wrote:maybe stop making CR 8 goblins and kobolds? If mobs generally conform with the Monster Manual there is some predictability, even though it doesn't really extend to the PC races.

+1

As far as AJAI targetting the weakest, by default I believe most mobs go for the lowest AC. This would be obvious if mobs had full models, but PCs are often stuck with 1-3 models for all [Orc]. AJAI can easily be set to target by race, class, etc (can't remember if level is actually a choice).

psycho_leo · Post by **psycho_leo** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:01 pm

idoru wrote:maybe stop making CR 8 goblins and kobolds? If mobs generally conform with the Monster Manual there is some predictability, even though it doesn't really extend to the PC races.

Agreed. But there are those that don't know enough of canon to make such assessments. I kind of like spider's suggestion.

Fionn wrote: As far as AJAI targetting the weakest, by default I believe most mobs go for the lowest AC. This would be obvious if mobs had full models, but PCs are often stuck with 1-3 models for all [Orc]. AJAI can easily be set to target by race, class, etc (can't remember if level is actually a choice).

I always see monsters going for the lowest lvl PC in the party.. but could be a coincidence.. as they usually have lower AC too. What bugs me about that is that sometimes the monster tries to cut through the whole party just to get to the guy that is way on the back.

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:35 pm

psycho_leo wrote:I always see monsters going for the lowest lvl PC in the party.. but could be a coincidence.. as they usually have lower AC too. What bugs me about that is that sometimes the monster tries to cut through the whole party just to get to the guy that is way on the back.

You mean the one in robes about to rain Hot Death or twink the Tanks into Unstoppable Killing Machines? :) Aye, I ran into that a couple times when my 12 HP mage was out with Mashan & Jarlen. Rather sucked to have every archer on the map target the guy in the back.

psycho_leo · Post by **psycho_leo** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:00 pm

Fionn wrote: You mean the one in robes about to rain Hot Death or twink the Tanks into Unstoppable Killing Machines?

I love that guy.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:02 pm

LEVEL or HD difference is meaningless as an assessment of difficulty as it's too large a generalization. This assessment is what Bioware's engine does by default and I've found it to be a false indicator of difficulty more often than not. For instance, with this system a level 16 wizard would be a pushover for a level 20 fighter. You would be hard pressed to qualify that match up as a "pushover". The outcome of a fight has more to do with class abilities, character abilities, and equipment.

A better mechanism needs to be devised than level difference for it to be worthwhile and I think it needs to stay away from making any statements about "difficulty". A player/character should judge for themselves what they think will or will not be difficult for them based on specific data (true or false depending on the roll).

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:25 pm

If someone writes a system to use SM/Bluff for a simple HD compare, I'd be for it. We all know there's more to it than that, but at least it gives you *some* data. Better would be some switch statments to check your classes vs their classes, but now we have to trust the dev rather than our PC's eyes to mitigate the raw HD compare.

I'd like to really enforce building standards so that mobs stay IC as Plan A. If we also have SM/Bluff as Plan B, that is fine. Even if Plan B isn't totally accurate, seeing that 6 Goblins are 'Easy' and one is 'Hard' is good data for a scout to bring back. Currently, he just reports the floaty names.