NWN2: Trade bars vs Gems

MorbidKate · Post by **MorbidKate** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:40 pm

(Moved to a more appropriate thread)

The only currency we have is gold. My understanding was that trade bars were introduced to address the ooc weight players were lugging around because a lack of persistant storage on many servers forced many to carry their life savings on their backs.

It was a good half-measure but it failed to take advantage of the gem system we already had in place since gold really only affected the low strength characters. Most characters are adventures so it would make perfect sense for them to travel with gems hidden on their person instead of sacks and sacks of gold or lbs of trade bars that still affect the low strength character because by their very nature also tend to carry the weight of arrows or bolts as well.

Gold is valued equally on all our servers because the the price variation is hidden in the price of items so why not treat gems the same way? Allow players to fully make use of gems and give them a standard value like we do with gold. If you allow all merchants to accept them at a consistant price and give coins as change then you create a situation where gems can really be used properly. It's IC for players to carry gems because they travel and you addreses the weight issue in a clean manner. It also adds a dimension to our project no others have that I'm aware of.

Kate

TheCrazyGoblin · Post by **TheCrazyGoblin** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:50 pm

Mikayla summed it up for me

Gems will be the lightweight alternative, but because they must be appraised, there should usually be a cost in exchanging wealth from gold to gems or from gems to gold, and most merchants, save those that trade in gems, should be taking only gold. So, a PC may carry fabulous amounts of wealth around in gems, but to buy anything, must convert some to gold (thus incurring an exchange cost).

So not all merchants should accept them, but yes a light wieght alternative to gold

MorbidKate · Post by **MorbidKate** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:07 pm

TheCrazyGoblin wrote:Mikayla summed it up for me

Gems will be the lightweight alternative, but because they must be appraised, there should usually be a cost in exchanging wealth from gold to gems or from gems to gold, and most merchants, save those that trade in gems, should be taking only gold. So, a PC may carry fabulous amounts of wealth around in gems, but to buy anything, must convert some to gold (thus incurring an exchange cost).
So not all merchants should accept them, but yes a light wieght alternative to gold

Servers such as TPI have merchants with limited funds so they are limited on what they will/can buy from a character. I love it. They may not have enough gold to buy that +5 Thong so it would very very easy to do the same with gems. A simple merchant can be set up so they can make change for marginal gems but can't afford to take that flashy Diamond off your hands. For that you may need a jewelry shop, bank or wealthy shop owner. It's very IC for all involved as well and if you really needed to, add a conversion rate of 2% to the chat dialogue.

The goal is to encourage players to use the systems we develop and the only way that ever happens is if it's simple and easy, especially for new players. If the conversion rate is too high, players won't bother with it and that's the situation we have now with gems and trade bars.

Kate

Overfilled Cup · Post by **Overfilled Cup** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:03 pm

The current system is not broke and you can trade in gems you just sort of need to go to gem shops to convert them. If we made the buy/sellback appropriate for what we need then thats all that really needs to be done. We can continue to include the Trade Bars as well as an effective alternative.

I dont really like the idea of all merchants knowing how to convert the many varieties of gems. Just like now they dont buy/sell Trade bars. You should have to visit the trade gem shop.

IMO

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:50 pm

Keep in mind, NWN initially did not allow us to limit what a merchant would buy, nor how much total wealth he had. The only variable was the buyback %. We eventually got the ability to whitelist or blacklist classes of items (e.g. Misc Small, Misc Medium, Longsword, etc...), but we cannot refine it any further.

NWN2 may have a much better (or at least more refinable) merchanting system. We may also get someone to come up with a dynamic SQL driven economic model (turn in 1,000 short swords, suddenly they're not worth a copper in that region. Buy up all the gems in an area, the price rises to reflect rarity).

Bottom line, we need to discuss the broad catagories of systems we want in place, not granular specifics. Yes, we want gold to weigh, and yes we want a mechanism for transport of wealth. No, we have no idea what tools will be available to implement those systems.

Dorn · Post by **Dorn** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:21 am

Never had a problem with tradebars.

Always made more sense having a tradebar merchant in every town than having a gem merchant which seemed to be able to buy and then redistribute endless amounts of gems. Gold is the standard tender in the realms isn;t it?

not fussed either way.

Keith Mac · Post by **Keith Mac** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:12 am

I like MK's Idea....just read into it a little more...it makes sense.....Trade Bars are annoying....and there is a huuuge variation with what people pay for gems right now....

Overfilled Cup · Post by **Overfilled Cup** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:34 am

The problem is either a merchant buys gems or he doesnt theres no two way option about it..Buyback for gear is set low for a reason..So unless you want your gems traded in at 35% max of there value I dont know of a way to do it with the current toolset...

Somebody correct me if im wrong.

Magonushi · Post by **Magonushi** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:49 am

Hopefully with NWN2 it will be possible to set different buyback rates for different item types. This would allow merchants to approximatly trade their goods for gems as well as gold if it was IC for them to do so.

Swift · Post by **Swift** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:25 am

IIRC tradebars were always intended to be a temporary measure. Again, IIRC, even indio stated that while he was still lead admin. The fact we still have them is...strange to me.

I am totally in favor of the gem system.

Teric neDhalir · Post by **Teric neDhalir** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:14 pm

Edit: Post deleted in attempt to hide my stupidity.
Teric

wvincenti · Post by **wvincenti** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:08 pm

Gems.
Even if every town doesn't end up with a gem merchant please lets try to encourage their use instead of trade bars.

Now if we can only figure out how to play marbles with them in game.

-Bill

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:40 pm

In order to make gems "work", a server needs a gem merchant, whose buyback % is well above the usual (smelly goblin armor-balanced) merchant buyback. In order to keep players from selling said goblin armor to the gem merchant, it needs to be restricted to buying "gems" only in the toolset.

We've got one in Arabel, and plan to add one in Eveningstar (so AC and NC will have one each).

The conversion loss is still pretty big compared to tradebars. The buyback percentage I was advised of for gem merchants was a 75% base, which means you loose a quarter of the value each time. Compound that with a 110% sell rate, and you've got something that's not a "savy business investement" for any but the richest yet scrawniest PCs.

We could push it up higher than 75%, perhaps? Tradebars are at 95% effectively, by comparison.

Convenience and technical problems aside, I'd rather not see every fishmonger and blacksmith across Faerun be able to flawlessly appraise gems. Sure, some will give a few coin for something that "looks valuable", but you're never going to get a decent return from a valuable gem from anyone but an expert.

MorbidKate · Post by **MorbidKate** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:37 pm

AcadiusLost wrote: The conversion loss is still pretty big compared to tradebars. The buyback percentage I was advised of for gem merchants was a 75% base, which means you loose a quarter of the value each time. Compound that with a 110% sell rate, and you've got something that's not a "savy business investement" for any but the richest yet scrawniest PCs.

We could push it up higher than 75%, perhaps? Tradebars are at 95% effectively, by comparison.

The current convertion rate effectively removes gems as anything more than a spawn drop. Gems have far more potential than that and could become very IC for low strength classes as a means of transporting wealth.

As I said, if there is a value limit on how much a merchant can pay for an item then you've effectively created an IC reason why a Halfling fishmonger won't buy a diamond. Make gem prices universal and make buyback rates 95% as they are with trade bars while limiting merchants on what the amount of gold they pay out. Now you have an effective IC alternative to trade bars.

Kate

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:49 am

Fionn wrote:We may also get someone to come up with a dynamic SQL driven economic model (turn in 1,000 short swords, suddenly they're not worth a copper in that region. Buy up all the gems in an area, the price rises to reflect rarity).

I've seen this done, but it means using dialogue for merchants instead of the inventory page, a bit of a pain.

The real problem is that the D&D economy in general is whacked. Historically, a silver piece was enough to buy a horse and was equivalent to two weeks pay as a Roman Legionnaire. Gold runs like water. An ale shouldn't cost a gold, it should cost a copper, etc.