Experience for random-monster hunters

[Mulu]

I agree with Whitey.

I will point out that one of the crafting proposals included an artisan class, with mundane crafting skills limited to that class. So, you *could* be a muffin man if you really wanted to under that system, or at least a seamstress, bowyer, fletcher, etc.

[White Warlock]

My apologies, I had forgotten you were in charge of all things ALFA.

Apologies accepted.

[Drankathar]

Mayhem, seriously, just go play the sims. You can do everything you want there and not have to worry if james the fighter is killing stuff for more "exp". Or better yet become a dm and enforce your tyranical view of non combat pcs should get equal xp as combat pcs on the server that you chose to dm.

Oh and you asked who will miss combat exp? I will. Your one person wanting a change, im one person that doesnt want the change. Looks like so far this vote is a tie.

[Fionn]

Mayhem - combat XP is staying. I don't need to be in charge to state that factually ;)

What is leaving (we hope) is the ability to safely farm the same mobs over and over while dimret removes the XP for meta reasons (then, of course, finding a new server that has a new database)

[Mayhem]

Mayhem, seriously, just go play the sims. You can do everything you want there and not have to worry if james the fighter is killing stuff for more "exp".

Or, why don't you go play WoW, where you can go kill stuff for phat loot and XP without worrying that others might want to reign in your PGing farming streak?

Heh, that was an easy shot, wasn't it? All I had to to was ignore what you were saying and exagerate your views to the point of ridiculousness.

I'm not worried about james the farmer getting more XP than bob the baker. But if he is getting significantly more XP than Joe the wizard and Roy the rogue, who are perfectly valid adventuring builds, because he can take on a tribe of kobolds solo whilst they cannot, then ultimately we are rewarding one specific style of play and it is a style of play that ALFA is not supposed to be focused on.

Or better yet become a dm and enforce your tyranical view of non combat pcs should get equal xp as combat pcs on the server that you chose to dm

Tyrannical view, lol. You'll note that the debate started as questions, questions that most people on the pro-xp side have actually failed to answer.

Oh and you asked who will miss combat exp? I will. Your one person wanting a change, im one person that doesnt want the change. Looks like so far this vote is a tie.

That point was aimed at those saying no change is necessary, because the amount of XP they get from combat is negligable compared to that they get from DMs.

If your PC does get significant XP from it, some of the people on the "lets keep it" side of the debate would call you a PGer and a farmer.

[White Warlock]

I'm not worried about james the farmer getting more XP than bob the baker. But if he is getting significantly more XP than Joe the wizard and Roy the rogue, who are perfectly valid adventuring builds, because he can take on a tribe of kobolds solo whilst they cannot, then ultimately we are rewarding one specific style of play and it is a style of play that ALFA is not supposed to be focused on.

You know Mayhem, that is the friggin' problem. Not what you state as the problem, but what you present as the problem. It's when people are 'jealous' of their neighbors that they create tension and replace picket fences for barbed wire.

I could care less what another player gets in XP. Hell, i had a friggin' barbarian/druid dwarf, with an overlarge animal companion, and even though he was potentially a tank, most everyone was passing him up. The only sad thing for me in it, was watching all my previous adventuring companions moving onto greater challenges and leaving me behind. I didn't feel jealous of them, i felt sad for myself... missing them.

Mayhem, there's a few messages in that last paragraph, and as i've somewhat given up on people reading between the lines of my posts, let me break it all down:

• 1) Just because a PC is 'capable' of being a tank, doesn't mean a player will play him as one.
  
  2) Leveling rate is not as dependent upon the character build, as it is dependent upon the time you put into playing AND the focus you have when you play.
  
  3) If someone obtains more xp than you, so what? It's not a race, and there are no kewpie dolls for beating out your fellow ALFAn.
  
  4) When the attention is placed on how fast everyone else levels up, the scrutiny must be sent back to you... for there is absolutely no valid reason you should be concerned about everyone else on an OOC basis, if your goal is to enjoy the game in an IC manner.
  
  5) If you see someone doing something wrong, or you suspect someone is doing something wrong, report it and forget it... don't friggin' dwell on it.
  
  6) What you are reacting to is the fear of those types of players that are 'not allowed' in ALFA.

Ultimately, the goal is to enjoy the game via roleplay and interaction with others. If we become distracted with the task of policing, or become envious of the character-builds of others, then we fail to enjoy the pleasure of roleplay, and instead become obsessed with rollplay.

You'll note that the debate started as questions, questions that most people on the pro-xp side have actually failed to answer.

Not even remotely true. The questions you posed were not valid to begin with, but since you wish to argue things in this manner, i'll do a complete review of your initial post, and provide the answers you honestly are not seeking:

If we set up random spawns from which we can get XP, but *only* by killing them, we are actively rewarding players who create combat-based characters, and offering no reward to those who create characters based around any one of a myriad of other concepts.

Why?

The first weakness in this query, is that you have absolutely no idea what Ronan is presenting, in regards to spawns for NWN2. The second weakness is that you are assuming static content only, and giving absolutely no credence to the most important aspect of this community... DMs.

So, to answer your question, if you wish to roleplay a character who will endeavor to act in a fashion that is not combat oriented, then participate in DMed events and you will be rewarded accordingly.

If you wish to question why static content does not provide means of obtaining XP without actually taking risks, then the answer is right there in the question. Without risk, XP is too easily obtainable, and thus far more exploitable.

If you wish to question why alternatives have not been presented, the question is returned to you... in that why are you wasting our time with these questions when you could simply try and provide alternatives, or request that alternatives be presented. But to waste our time with "why" nobody is doing it, is as foolish as standing in the middle of the street and asking why the cars aren't moving. Because you're in the way! Provide a solution, encourage alternatives, or get out of the way and stop impeding progress.

Fie on you pacifists, you dedicated healers, you social charmers, your musicians, you traders. You are less valuable to us than our monster slayers, as evidenced by the way we reward them more than we reward you.

Why?

XP in D&D is combat-based, therefore there is absolutely no reason that a pacifist should ever obtain XP. Dedicated healers differ substantially from clerics, in that clerics serve a dual role for their diety, while healers only perform 'basic' medical services. If, however, you are referring to a cleric that is a pacifist, please see above. Musicians and traders can do whatever it is they wish to do, but again... XP has absolutely nothing to do with what they do. XP serves to develop a character's combat abilities.

Why, in a PW that purports to place role-play above all other things, do we want to promote this sort of character?

Actually, that's not what ALFA purports above all things. Above all things, ALFA endeavors to recreate Faerun, utilizing the NWN game engine. Roleplay is an endeavor in this... but be full understood that roleplay does NOT mean acting. Roleplay means to play the role of a particular character-type within a given setting. In the case of D&D, the character-types are ALL combat oriented and the setting is a feudal scene with lethal magiks and bloodthirsty predators.

But I am saying that the characters should have, in the absence of a DM, an equal chance to earn XP. Otherwise ALFA is saying that one type of character is better than the other.

For the purposes of combat, one type of character IS better than another. This won't change, DM or sans-DM. Now, if you wish to state that regardless of character builds, all characters should be able to earn XP at an equal rate, all other things considered equal... then i say you are fundamentally flawed in your thoughts.

As a martial artist/boxer/wrestler, i've come to a very strong understanding that people can practice for 20 years and never be able to fight their way out of a paper bag. Why? Because of their build and their study focus. There are plenty of people who study things that are simply not effective in a real confrontation. And while i may have respect for them, and their great insight, when it comes to combat, those who specifically study combat (not mere theory), are simply better at it.

And since XP in D&D is about combat, there is simply no reason why a non-combat oriented character should obtain XP faster than a combat-oriented one.

Now, it could be argued that a rogue who focuses all his efforts into robbing empty homes, actually never gets into a physical confrontation. And it could be argued that if he does it often he gains a higher degree of skill in breaking into homes. But why should he, as well, gain more hit points, increase the damage he does when he stabs someone in the back, become more accurate in stabbing people in the back, or any of the other 'ingrained-no-choice' skills that go along with XP?

You see, positioning your study points to non-combat SKILLS and FEATS, these are by choice. But, virtually everything that comes along with obtaining levels is combat-oriented, no choice. More hit points, better attack, more damage, etc etc. All of this is built-in to the leveling process, which is directly dependent upon the XP you obtain.

How do we give them an equal chance for earnign XP? Either we stop rewarding Throgga for her monster-hunting, or start rewarding Mathilda for her non-monster hunting strength, wherever that may lie.

Unfortunately, there are as many different non-combat concepts as there are character combinations, so the latter is exremely difficult to achieve. Removing random monster XP seems to be the only practical option.

The real question is, WHY should we give them an equal chance for earning XP, when XP is combat-based, and non-combatants aren't performing actions that would allow them to develop their combat skills?

The answer is, we shouldn't.

Whether you know it or not, what you are really asking for is a means for non-combatants to develop their non-combat oriented skillsets, without the dependency of XP. Well, this could potentially be presented in the game, but in order for it to happen, reasonable proposals need to be presented.

[Stormseeker]

Just thought i would add that when i played a rogue he actually leveled faster and gained more gold than the fighter.(the ability to trap a area, backstab, and the amount of potions he could use because of wealth, allowed him to take on stronger monsters than the fighter)
Now playing a wiz/sorc was all together different, but i figured it is made that way on purpose...after all in the source books it is always a couple of them in charge of a horde of fighters.
And i think WW is right, if you play a pure non combat pc...then expect to lower slower than everyone else. Unless you was smart enough to send screen shots of your non combat healer...healing everything in site.*grins*

[Hakkman]

This post will not add very much to the conversation. I just want to say that I agree with Mayhem that it is unfair that the warrior classes generally have easier means of gaining XP. Though unless a warrior is only fighting rats, bats, and sheep, the chance of not surviving is to be considered. The chance of having a PC die when performing or making leather armor is close to none.

I personally find it extremely annoying to log on to a server where I have played the same PC for over a year, and find that many PCs that were far after mine XP-wise, suddenly rush past my PC in levels.

The reasons for those PC's level gain may be many and very valid, but, being human, makes me jealous and I feel that it is unfair that said PC gained levels faster than me. There is not much to do about that though. One could argue that it is very un-RP-like to get hung up about other PCs' levels, but I am certain that many feel that it is unfair when another player's PC zooms past your own in XP, be it valid XP gaining or not.

[Mulu]

Well, there is an IC component to leveling, as obviously the PC's are gaining in power, especially combat prowess. So, a fast-leveler and a slow-leveler in the same game world are technically immersion breaking for each other, though the slow leveler probably feels the bite more.

And I agree with Whitey that the real downside to watching your friends level past you is not jealousy but imbalance that leads to less participation. Again we see that balance is important in D&D. Add to that fact that many DM's tend to favor the powerful, either purposefully or as a function of the danger they create, and being a social gamer can have its negative consequences. Of course, there are servers that specialize in social PC's. ALFA has niches.

But I think people choose a social gaming style because they want to explore relationships and philosophical issues. Ultimately, that means less progress in combat skills if you are spending all your time being a non-combatant. So, it's actually IC for non-combat PC's to progress slower, and they should see combat focused PC's becoming more powerful than they are in combat over time.

One of the reasons I so vehemently defend a cap is to lessen the impact of this disparity in gaming styles, thus validating the social gamer. Taking out combat xp would also lessen the impact, but goes against the whole point of D&D. The game is premised on PC's being heroes, brave and powerful fantasy heroes who delve into dungeons and take on dragons, hence the name. If you break that paradigm, you break the game, and you're no longer playing D&D.

Now, we include a lot of playstyles here, but nixing combat xp is ultimately about being less inclusive of playstyles than more, since it would be an act against the combat playstyle, a playstyle that is fundamental to the game.

To put it bluntly, it's the tiefling merchant that is the aberration in D&D, not the min/maxed human fighter. Every PC is technically a combatant in fantasy hero roleplaying. Samwise Gamgee may have been a gardener, but he spent his "game time" fighting monsters. Gardener was just his backstory.