NWN2: XP caps discussion

[HEEGZ]

I posted the last thoughts I had on a cap in WW's thread. Basically, I had come to 4000xp/month and validations every 5th level, both. I'm starting to look at this holistically and am currently working on a uniform DM award system. I really think that if a cap is used, it should be something that makes it less work for (H)DMs/PA. This means a cap that is not investigated. If people approach it as a goal to reach, then that is fine, as long as they stay IC, etc. Hopefully all of the systems will foster IC behavior and as is currently the case, PGers will weed themselves out. I have more to comment but have to leave town, more later.

BTW, having this discussion in two threads sucks.

[Mulu]

Yes, two threads is confusing. Of course, you could always lock one of them and put in link to the second.

Fionn, did you ever figure out if the algorithm thing was doable? The part I don't understand is the low end. How would it give a bigger award without knowing the whole month xp gains, or would it be a "bonus" at next month's log in, and if so wouldn't it then affect that month's xp gain? It seems to me that having an "algorithmic hard cap" that also bumps the underpriveleged would be ideal overall, though some folk may actually not want to get bumped.

[Fionn]

This all assumes we have NWNX4 and it can be used for central DB access, thus we have access to WeeklyXP (or last 7 days, or monthly, or whatever).

The DM awards X. The wand looks at what that would bring them to for the week/month/whatever and runs

Code: Select all

Assume a nominal goal of 1000/week

X * (1200 - (X + WeeklyXP)) / 500

We cap (WeeklyXP + X) at 1150, thus you never actually reach 0. Assuming you've got nothing for the week, and you get a single award of 200, this above doubles the award to 400.

Code: Select all

200 * (1200 - (200 + 0)) / 500 = 400

Assuming you've already got 800 and you get another 150, it halves the award (remember, the first 500 of that 800 was getting a boost)

Code: Select all

150 * (1200 - (800 + 150)) / 500 = 75

Assuming you've got 1150 or more for the week, you get 1/10th of the award. If you play 80+ hours a week, and hit a lot of mobs/DMs, you will never cease earning XP. You will, however, not be getting much after the first 20 hours or so.

Tweak the math to give whatever curve we wish - the point is to plateau those that get *way* too much, while letting those that rarely see XP get a boost towards our 'normal' awards. One of the math geeks may be able to account for single large awards better than I (say, a DM gives only one 1000 XP award each week, and that is the entire XP for the week). Alternately, we simply remove the second 'X' from the equation and ignore current awards.

[Mayhem]

Just a point.

The DMG tells us to award XP for overcoming challenges, which is not the same as "killing monsters".

Killing a bunch of random orcs who are only attacking you because you wandered into their home is not an event that advances a plot, and therefore by the DMG it would be quite legitemate to not award any XP for random monsters.

Now, if the monsters are tied to a static quest that the PC is participating in, then yes, they are a challenge and he gets XP for them, but that can be set by the static XP, not the monster XP.

***

That would leave us only XP from statics, which can be non repeatable, or at least non-repeatable in a given time frame.

And XP from DMs, the bulk of which ought to have some "Level x challenge x time" guideline with some optional RP XP.

[White Warlock]

While i agree with you on principle, killing random monsters is, in and of itself, a challenge. If you survive said challenge, you overcame said challenge. If the challenge was easy, the rewards should be minimal... but if you nearly died and received nothing???

But the greater argument we can pose here is... a plot, quest, mission or campaign event does not dictate the actions of the occasional mugging. And yet, if you survive such an encounter, you learn something... you obtain experience. What i'm saying here is that life is not scripted, and just because things happen outside of 'plans' does not mean such things have no impact. The greatest challenges in my life have been the ones that hit me broadside, not head on.

And pulling this into the context of combat (the basis for which XP was initially doled out in D&D), i've practiced martial arts for a long time, but the moments in which i learned the most was when i had to deal with real, unrefereed, confrontations. Even the so-called 'no-holds barred' competitions do not provide the learning curve associated with effectively managing an unexpected incident of potential lethality.

Returning to your point, I'm just not altogether keen about the idea of XP being provided merely because someone participated in a quest, or ended up being a pawn in someone's plot. If my character is at a bar, chortling with the local riffraff, am i not to obtain any experience for being in character, and providing entertainment to the other players, merely because it's not part of a quest?

I suppose i'm coming at this from a point of experience, in which i had an incident back on one server where my PC participated in a dialogue with an NPC run by a DM, and where other PCs were in some sort of ongoing quest that was campaigned by that DM. And while my character participated in, and generally added quite a bit of entertainment for everyone, i received nothing... while they received plenty of experience. The reason was, my character stayed in character and, being his accent was so strong, and his comprehension of local accents so weak, he couldn't understand the intent of the discussion so he didn't join up with those guys to go on with their quest.

So, for the same amount of time played, which was 3 hours or so, in the same scene together... i received nothing, and they received hundreds of XP. Why? Because they were pursuing a DMed quest, while i was staying in character...

And while i understand your example was in reference to killing monsters, i think it follows along the same lines of argument. DMs should not be dictating what is to be rewarded merely because something is quest/plot/campaign-oriented. It should be based on many factors, including roleplay and severity of challenges.... scripted or otherwise.

Well, that was fun...

[Mayhem]

If you had pnp players who randomly waltzed off into the wilderness for no reason other than to kill whatever random monsters they came across, would you honeslty reward them XP for that?

How about you couldn't make it one week, so the players did exactly that thing, but played the monsters themselves as well, playing them reasonably smart but not to the same extent you, as their DM, would have. Then next week, you come back and they say "We all gained a level last week, killed a bunch of orcs." That sound good to you?

Basically, its the same thing. Sure, in a PW there are additional complications, but fundementally, its the same thing.

We should get XP for advancing the story, not for killing stuff. It may be our own pesonal story, and it may be that occasionally that personal story includes the slaughter of monsters, but most players are encouraged to have a bit more stuff in their bio beyond "I like to randomly slaughter monsters in order to practice my fighting skills".

[Khazar Stoneblood]

Ah yes, but if my PC is part of the daggerford militia, and his goals are to serve the town of daggerford, and daggerford is accosted by orcs...

wouldn't going around and slaughtering orcs be advancing my PC's story?

(just playing devils advocate).

[Mulu]

There's nothing inherently wrong with limiting xp to statics and DM's. I've been tempted many times to turn off combat xp. But the justification for turning it off is not because it isn't a challenge, or because you don't play DM-less in PnP, it's because you don't want PC's to be able to farm spawns for xp and advance in level too fast. As I've said before, xp is an ooc mechanic, so you can do whatever you want with it.

But caps fix the xp issue, while still allowing for training from combat. ALFA is a 90%+ DM-less world. If it's static heavy, then static xp can probably replace combat xp. But statics take a lot more work than spawn points, and DM-less combat in a party can be very rp satisfying. Not all spawns are soloed you know. I've had many sessions in ALFA that were premised on learning new combat techniques by using a random spawn, with multiplayer rp and combat, no DM's. I think those session deserve xp just as much as soloing a static quest, if not more.

[psycho_leo]

There's nothing inherently wrong with limiting xp to statics and DM's. I've been tempted many times to turn off combat xp. But the justification for turning it off is not because it isn't a challenge, or because you don't play DM-less in PnP, it's because you don't want PC's to be able to farm spawns for xp and advance in level too fast. As I've said before, xp is an ooc mechanic, so you can do whatever you want with it.

If people want to farm they will do so, regardless of a cap or whatnot. If you remove xp gains from combat they will farm for gold.

The only thing you can acomplish by removing gains from static spawns is end the possibility of player driven adventures. I mean, why on earth would I take my PC and a few others to a forest to attack that camp of bloodthirsty orcs that raid caravans on the road if I won't get anything out of it (without a DM around at least). Ultimately my PC will spend loads of gold in expendable supplies and get what in return? Nothing?

[Stormseeker]

Well there was a dm driven plot on tlr with a crap load of orcs. During the week we would rp scouting, hit and run(especialy when another dm was on),etc and then on weekends do the dm plot with a update of everything we did during the week.
When you was charged with protecting the country side or your pc is striving to prove himself as a paladin wanna be...cost doesn't figure into the rp.

Just like in real life when i stopped a mugging, fixed a flat/vehichle for a woman stranded, or drove a man's cattle back inside his fince and fixed it.
I did not get a reward, sometimes it cost me money and it did cost me time, sometimes i got hurt in the process. But i still did it. And still do.

[psycho_leo]

Well there was a dm driven plot on tlr with a crap load of orcs. During the week we would rp scouting, hit and run(especialy when another dm was on),etc and then on weekends do the dm plot with a update of everything we did during the week.
When you was charged with protecting the country side or your pc is striving to prove himself as a paladin wanna be...cost doesn't figure into the rp.

Just like in real life when i stopped a mugging, fixed a flat/vehichle for a woman stranded, or drove a man's cattle back inside his fince and fixed it.
I did not get a reward, sometimes it cost me money and it did cost me time, sometimes i got hurt in the process. But i still did it. And still do.

You're missing my point. I am not talking about DM plots. I played with DMs a lot. Sometimes I got nice rewards and sometimes I just got slaped around (A LOT - and with that comes money loss). All with good RP. All fun.

I am talking about those days when you can't get a DM. Hhopefully the DMless periods will become more rare when the new servers go live, but that's the stuation we're living now and that is something I have no doubt wll come around again, given the time, even with the new servers.

If you can't get a DM you are left with three choices.
1. Log out
2. Hang around with other players Roplaying at the local inn or something like that. That's very fun I've done it loads of time, but it's not something I am willing to do every time I can't get a DM
3. Get a group together and go adventure (which does not equals farming). Most of my fun in ALFA has come from those. Now if I know for certain that every time I go out there ina situation like that I will get no reward, why would I? I would be safer going with option 1 or 2, because uless my PC is ubber I am certain to have to make use of some supplies (and those cost a lot) or get beaten up (healing also costs a lot if you're not a cleric), leaving my PC somewhat gimped for when I do have a DM adventure.

[Mayhem]

3. Get a group together and go adventure (which does not equals farming). Most of my fun in ALFA has come from those. Now if I know for certain that every time I go out there in a situation like that I will get no reward, why would I?

Lets look at that again, with the emphasis elsewhere.

3. Get a group together and go adventure (which does not equals farming). Most of my fun in ALFA has come from those.

Think you answered your own question, there, chief.

****

And having played on a server with functioning Dimret scripts, I can honestly say that even for no XP, I will still go explore areas and fight dangerous monsters for meagre reward, partly because it is in character for me to do so but primarily because, as you observe, it is fun.

[Keith Mac]

I am talking about those days when you can't get a DM. Hhopefully the DMless periods will become more rare when the new servers go live, but that's the stuation we're living now and that is something I have no doubt wll come around again, given the time, even with the new servers.

Hence the need for Scripted XP counters...Mandatory on all servers...and eliminating/reducing static spawn kill XP so in the end you are still getting XP for your kill....just not more then the guy practicing on his combat dummy. Keep in mind your additional risk is being rewarded however with FUN....and possibly LOOT!

[Mulu]

As I understand it scripted xp counters are not automatic, they still require DM intervention. Where DM's are active they'll work. Where DM's are inactive, or only responsive to their favorite peeps, they won't work. Not knocking them, just something to consider. I certainly wouldn't want to have to rely on them for character advancement.

[Stormseeker]

Many a time the dm plot evolved around what us players was doing. Most of the time i am all for just going finding "trouble" and the dm can join if they want to.