Speeds and armor

[t-ice]

If you can alter the OnEquip event to "hijack" a movement mode, you can almost surely alter it to give any given-percentage movement rate penalty or bonus just as well. (Could be smarter, easier and more flexible way to do it than hak alterations, too)

Custom armor rules, from my limited experience gut feeling, seems ubiguitous among the custom-rules hack-and-slash-grind servers, so there's got to be know-how out there.

[Keryn]

Being a fan of playing rogues and other light armored character types, I believe an in game mechanic that would allow my lightly armored PC to out run heavily armored PC's and NPC's would improve my game.

Just Saying

Exactly jmecha the problem is, that so far it might be that we don't have a "problem", because people just endure the situation, doesn't mean it is not there, and the fact is, AC in ALFA plays a heavy role since its so important in survival. Getting all the benefits without any downside obviously affects the gaming of others who should be doing something that now suddenly someone in full plate is able to do, and better...

So yes.. its all fine and dandy.. but fact is the users of light armor have seen their role hijacked quite often.

[Ithildur]

Exactly jmecha the problem is, that so far it might be that we don't have a "problem", because people just endure the situation, doesn't mean it is not there...

Bingo.

If any DM ran a 3.5e campaign where it was house-ruled that heavy vs light armor functioned the way it does in NWN2, anyone but the most self centered heavy armor wearer would realize the game balance was off. Add to that the way nwn2 handles flat footedness, and any player and DM worth his salt would realize light armor wearers would be SERIOUSLY screwed.

Just because we've lived with/endured certain flawed elements of the NWN1 engine in the past for whatever reason good or bad, does not mean everything is fine. It's not, unless we're ok with a ruleset encouraging a heavy hack and slash playstyle. We know the vanilla game heavily favors a hack and slash playstyle.

Again, this is at a brainstorming stage, and priorities need to be evaluated and weighed vs the potential benefit. I personally do see significant benefits to the overall game experience which is why I support this.

This isn't really about "I like heavy armor PCs so I don't like this" or "I like light armor PCs so I like this", but rather "The current mechanics are pretty seriously broken and if a minor tweak to heavy armor speed can be implemented then it would bring at least a bit more balance, and encourage choices and options for both characters and tactics; sounds like it could be a good thing."

[Ithildur]

((oops, delete double post))

[Swift]

Forget about pnp rules for a second and lets just consider some game mechanics and balance within the game as is; the fact is people in medium/light/no armor (in ascending order of severity) are screwed by being considered flat footed in ridiculous situations all the time.

Right...so...how does slowing down those in heavy armor change the fact that this will continue to happen?

It's especially bad in a RP heavy setting and actually discourages someone from seeing a hostile creature and RPing appropriate responses, because that hostile will immediately peg the flatfooted PC and nail him while he's standing there (typing an emote etc) without any of his dex or dodge bonuses.

And how is this going to be changed?

1. as SOON as you see a hostile and they are aware of you, you IMMEDIATELY target and attack it which causes the engine to roll your initiative and no longer consider you flatfooted. No emotes, no shouting a warning, no signals, no RP, no tactical repositioning, not even a chance to retreat if they're ranged; you'll still be considered flatfooted and they'll easily fill you with arrows unless you attack. , and then KEEP ATTACKING NON STOP until every single hostile is gone. If you even so much as pause for a second and type something, try to reposition, regroup, drink a potion, cast a spell, virtually any other action besides attack, you are flatfooted again and your ac plummets abysmally.

2. If you happen to be stealthed/invis/otherwise unspotted and see hostiles, you thank the stars and move out of their range, and have the heavy armor guys run up and draw fire. It doesn't matter if you happen to be slicker than that Drizzt guy and have the dex of a demigod which *should* give you AC on par or better than the heavy armor guy and allow you to dance and dodge; as far as the NWN engine is concerned as long as you're doing anything other than stupid mad attacking, your AC is calculated WITHOUT all your uber dex and speed and mad dodge skillz.

And this? How is this going to change? If someone in light armor is strolling along with his heavy armor friend and gets spotted by a hostile this is still going to happen.

All of this is made worse if in fact uncanny dodge is in fact broken as I was told by a member of standards, and Warning Weapon property (Magic of Faerun) is not allowed in ALFA

And this proposed change is, once again, not going to fix this issue.

Everything mentioned here, everything is a result of mechanics in NWN2 being broken. Mechanics we can't fix through scripting. Does it suck? Sure does, but unfortunately, thats just the way it is. All this change would do, is slow down people wearing heavy armor. Thats it. It won't make battles more tactical, it won't fix the utterly broken mechanics responsible for light/medium armor wearers apparent hardship and it won't somehow magically give you more time to RP and emote in the middle of combat. Every single issue that leaves light armor players at a disadvantage is still going to exist with this proposed change.

So tell me, what exactly is this change meant to fix?

[hollyfant]

So tell me, what exactly is this change meant to fix?

Balance.

Although frankly, I do think this discussion is overshooting the mark. The simple fact is that "High Strength - Full Plate" is vastly superior to "High Dexterity - Light Armour", more so than in Pen & Paper play. In part this is inherent to ALFA's "Low Level - Low Magic" environment, and in part it's due to errors in the game engine.

If we consider this a problem then the only thing to do about it is to nerf heavy armours, since we cannot undo the issues of the engine.

[Mord]

No, this is outright silly.

Tech monkey time is far better spent squashing bugs than trying to "fix" something we have been living with for the past 8 years now.

[Dorn]

So tell me, what exactly is this change meant to fix?

...well..

slow down people wearing heavy armor

or alternatively, as per the OP, make people in lighter armour faster.

I see different speeds in non-battle areas is a non-issue. We allow barbs, monks, rangers. I've played a barb for years of NWN/NWN2 and i've never seen it rasied as a problem with me or on the boards.

In terms of tactics...*shrugs* 10% movement over a battlefield could be the difference between having that finger of death cast on you becasue you dressed in iron to avoid swordcuts, or knocking the wizard down before he finishes the incantation because you wore hides to flank the enemy toughs. Some clearly think it has no impact. Some clearly think it would. I think in some cases it would just be a graphic reminder on the screen to RP what you're characters wearing.

I think perhaps the 'forced walk' might be going to far. But that's just my opinion.

Don't get too heated guys. This is just a brainstorming thread. It's not that it's been a huge lifedestroying problem for 10 years. I raised it as an opportunity to IMPROVE on what we had. A step closer to reality, and also PnP. If you dont consider the issues rasied about it being low priority or too hard*, there seemed to be a reasonable amount of support for it. Admin will make a decision about how important this , or any other, change is relative to other issues.

*the 'technically unfeasible' comments however are important:)

[Ithildur]

So tell me, what exactly is this change meant to fix?

Balance.

Although frankly, I do think this discussion is overshooting the mark. The simple fact is that "High Strength - Full Plate" is vastly superior to "High Dexterity - Light Armour", more so than in Pen & Paper play. In part this is inherent to ALFA's "Low Level - Low Magic" environment, and in part it's due to errors in the game engine.

If we consider this a problem then the only thing to do about it is to nerf heavy armours, since we cannot undo the issues of the engine.

Bingo Holly.

Swift, it's obviously not going to fix some of the deeper flaws in the game engine that are beyond our ability to address, but it will fix one thing, speed/movement rate in heavy armor, and it will push the balance scale to be a bit less skewed.

"it's been like this for years, don't change it" is not a valid basis for a final decision or worse ridiculing and dismissing some good points brought up for brainstorming/suggestions. "It's been like this for years, it's not good, but we do not have resources to prioritize this right now so we just need to endure this" is a more reasonable arguement.

If we as a community decide this situation is not a problem, well then that's that. However to do so, I'd argue that you'd have to ignore or downplay some hard facts as well as ignore many players in the community who'd like to see something like this implemented based on some very valid reasons.

[danielmn]

*nods* Nerfing the tanks would be an awesome way to get balance. Tanks, no longer being able to effectively retreat from any battle, would be forced to either think critically about any and every battle they face, often either NOT engaging at all because of risk factors, winning the battle, or getting killed because they can not disengage once engaged, forcing tanks to wear lesser armours to be more effective in battle, putting them on a level with the barbs and rangers. The ones that don't drop to lesser armour will eventually get splatted somehow by some monsters, leaving us with light/medium armoured fighters everywhere. Therefore reliance on rogues, barbs, rangers becomes critical for those that wear heavy armour, but not for those that swap out armours according to occasion or those that choose to wear lighter armour as they can easily fall away from any combat situation. Eventually when all heavy armour wearers are dead because they can not run away, we are left with the same situation we started out as. This serves only to decrease the AC of fighters, or to slow them down so that they eventually die. Good solution. How about we speed up the ranger/barbs instead?

Now personally, I don't mind not being able to run, I am often in that situation anyway because I've had to carry around all my items since Level 1.

[Swift]

Swift, it's obviously not going to fix some of the deeper flaws in the game engine that are beyond our ability to address, but it will fix one thing, speed/movement rate in heavy armor, and it will push the balance scale to be a bit less skewed.

Then, in my opinion, its not actually going to fix anything, as its very subjective as to whether you actually think movement rate in heavy armor is a problem or not.

I do not view it as a problem, because it isn't. Nor do many others. Some do think it is a problem, but one so laughably small on the scale of issues in ALFA as to be not worth looking at (eg Invisibility is still broken, as are per day spellcasting items bugging a casters spell slots on resting).

[Ithildur]

A few things to clarify what actually is subjective or not:

A. The fact that NWN2 game engine/ruleset heavily favors heavy armor, much more so than 3.5e RAW, is not subjective. See above posts for partial details of why this is so.

B. The fact that heavy armor has movement penalties in 3.5e rules which are not in NWN2, is not subjective.

C.Applying correct movement rates for heavy armor to bring things more in line with 3.5 RAW will shift the balance in favor of lighter armor wearers. This is not subjective.

Then, in my opinion, its not actually going to fix anything, as its very subjective as to whether you actually think movement rate in heavy armor is a problem or not.

As I see it the issue isn't simply whether movement rate is a problem or not; the issue is movement rate plus other significant advantages heavy armor has which should not exist in a 3.5e based game, advantages that are magnified in a RP oriented environment emphasizing a gameplay style closer to pnp than vanilla nwn.

I'm pretty sure we can't realisticly fix all of the existing balance issues with heavy armor... The fact that we have attempted to at least partially address resting in heavy armor (though oddly enough ACR penalizes light armor guys as well...) indicates awareness/acknowledgement that there is a problem with heavy armor. If we can fix movement rates, we'll be addressing another issue and further improve balance, not to mention bringing things closer to RAW.


What is open to debate/discussion is exactly how much the balance shift will effect overall game play, and whether the end result is worth shooting for given resources/time/energy that may be required,

Just to be clear.

[Swift]

danielmn has already posted a number of times of the work required to provide a proper and fair implementation, and it is vastly more than our resources would allow for.

A half assed implementation like a movement speed button or a straight movement speed reduction will negatively impact heavy armor wearers to the point you simply would not see them any more.

Is that the kind of balance you are really after?

What is open to debate/discussion is exactly how much the balance shift will effect overall game play

Dan said it best not 3 posts ago:

Tanks, no longer being able to effectively retreat from any battle, would be forced to either think critically about any and every battle they face, often either NOT engaging at all because of risk factors, winning the battle, or getting killed because they can not disengage once engaged, forcing tanks to wear lesser armours to be more effective in battle, putting them on a level with the barbs and rangers. The ones that don't drop to lesser armour will eventually get splatted somehow by some monsters, leaving us with light/medium armoured fighters everywhere. Therefore reliance on rogues, barbs, rangers becomes critical for those that wear heavy armour, but not for those that swap out armours according to occasion or those that choose to wear lighter armour as they can easily fall away from any combat situation. Eventually when all heavy armour wearers are dead because they can not run away, we are left with the same situation we started out as. This serves only to decrease the AC of fighters, or to slow them down so that they eventually die.

Thats what will happen.

[Blindhamsterman]

Equally, should someone want to have a go at making appropiate speed changes for everything to better match up with pnp, and show it working in a test mod, more power to them, if say, Ith decided to do that, it's not wasting resources as he has every right to do as he desires.

As for Balance, so long as it's fully implemented, it's all good, it's balanced, the example given below is not really appropiate, a Heavy armoured fighter SHOULD rely on skirmishers to keep fast moving things off him while he wades in or blocks off a choke point, that is the role of a tank which is what a fighter is designed to be.

It's a choice we have to make in pnp and should have to consider for ALFA too, speed or AC, both have advantages, both have disadvantages also.

It is interesting that the largest nay sayers for a speed reduction on heavy armours are from people that use heavy armour themselves...

BUT as dan has already said, it'd take a LOT of work, and therefore should not be handled by say, AL, but instead by someone that wants it and feels up to the challange of getting it sorted.

<edit>
as for light armour easily falling back, this is another reason speed needs to be handled as a whole and not just as a reduction on heavy armour, many monsters are faster than a PC can be and therefore even light armoured folk shouldn't be able to out run say... a wolf

[Ithildur]

With all props and respect to Dan, who I think is a good guy and an intelligent person and has done a lot for alfa, etc, that bit he posted, is so off base that I initially thought he was being ironic/joking. In fact I'm still not entirely convinced that he was being totally serious.