invisibility, again

[Ithildur]

I posted this in the TSM main forums, and realized later it's probably better posted here.

I also see that the elements of my suggested temporary fix have been put forth by others already (hide boost, HIPS). Anyway, here it is:


Possible starting point suggestion until a more elegant solution can be found (I doubt OE will fix this anytime soon): Script in a new invisibility/greater invis/walk unseen. Change effects of these so that when the spell is cast, three scripted effects kick in, lasting the duration of the spell/invocation

1. Hide ranks boosted to set amount; 30 ranks seems a good compromise based on invisibility detection rules for 3.5e (I'm presuming implementing RAW exactly may not be a viable option for NWN2; this can be discussed or even further refined based on distance, movement, location, etc if someone is ambitious enough to try to make it more like RAW; see below).

The boost is a SET amount, not an additional +30 to existing hide ranks, since invisiblity should not grant any advantages to someone with high Hide ranks over someone wearing a bright yellow clown costume and having zero ranks in Hide (MS is not affected at all by this obviously).

2. 50% concealment is given to the 'new'invis' creature, lasting for duration of the spell (ie minute/lvl or until character attacks; in the case of greater invis, simply duration of spell as the concealment should remain even with attacking). This is pretty self explanatory.

3. Grant the Hide In Plain Sight ability to the character which lasts for the duration of the spell as per normal, which means it's gone when an attack is made except in the case of Greater Invis it remains.

RAW rules for detecting invisible things:
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

30 ranks in hide with temporary HIPS may be a workable compromise because a DC 20 spot shouldn't reveal anything more than a 'haunch something's within 30 feet' per RAW, but someone in NWN2 who spots the 30 ranks hips guy can pretty much pinpoint the guy and target him with a variety of options for at least several seconds. Hence the DC should be higher than 20, arguably even higher than 30.

Practically speaking in a RP environment, you really shouldn't be running around at full speed while invis very often as it defeats the aim of trying to remain undetected (the exception is detection has occured, escape quickly) so having your movement rate reduced to walking by having to go into stealth mode isn't that much of setback imo.

In addition, having temporary hips grants additional opportunities to slip away safely unseen (or set up for your own attack); it's a powerful ability that balances out the disadvantages of a 30 Hide which is much more vulnerable than being RAW invisible.

Finally, all these effects end if the 'new invis' character attacks, unless they have Greater Invisibility.

The net affect would be closer in overall balance to Invisibility affects by RAW compared to the default OE Invisibility effect for handling invisible PCs, and certainly closer than no Invisibility at all... at least without extremely complicated scripting and possibly running up against game engine limitations.

Additional issue that was brought up: Detection via spells, such as See Invisibility, True Sight, Blind Sight, See the Unseen. I do not have access to technical details of how these spells work but if they work by simply blocking/supressing/ending a specific effect called 'Invisibility' for the caster/recipient of spell, then I'd imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to tweak them to block/end the 'new invisibility' effects for the caster/recipient of spell. If these spells do not function this way, then I'd have no idea atm.

Discuss/pick away; I know it's far from perfect, but I wanted to throw it out there in the off chance this wasn't already discussed at some point.

[hollyfant]

1. Hide ranks boosted to set amount;

That's difficult, I suspect. Skill bonuses tend to stack. Overall though, the plan has merits except for:

Additional issue that was brought up: Detection via spells, such as See Invisibility, True Sight, Blind Sight, See the Unseen.

Factoring those in turns an elegant solution into a nightmare I suspect. Plus there's the usual issue: we just don't have the scripters.

[Blindhamsterman]

Ithildur's idea is lovely and would sort out invisibility, the issue is that it doesn't fix the detection spells, so, we'd need to work out exactly what each of the detections does as well.

But as Holly says, we don't really have much in the way of scripting ability these days other than AL, and he's generally snowed under with the million and one other things the community asks for .

If anyone wants to have a go at creating Ithildurs concept and at least some of the detection spells to go with it, it would be superb though.

[Keryn]

I actually thinks the detection spells would be easy to fix.

If you grant 30 hide and HIPS to someone. The obvious way to break this is to grant enough ranks in Spot so that the PC with See invisibility always wins vs hide when the check is made.

So if you give the PC 30 hide, if you give 51 spot to the one with see invisibility you would break it. Problem is... what about everyone just using real hide? thats the problem...

Because invisibility is magical and hiding is a skill... i actually think Saderman looked into this solution, and it was left down because of this.

[Ithildur]

I actually thinks the detection spells would be easy to fix.

If you grant 30 hide and HIPS to someone. The obvious way to break this is to grant enough ranks in Spot so that the PC with See invisibility always wins vs hide when the check is made.

So if you give the PC 30 hide, if you give 51 spot to the one with see invisibility you would break it. Problem is... what about everyone just using real hide? thats the problem...

Because invisibility is magical and hiding is a skill... i actually think Saderman looked into this solution, and it was left down because of this.

Exactly, spotting other creatures that were simply hiding rather than invisible is the problem. BTW, 51 spot is not necessary; since the hide bonus would be a fixed/set amount, not a stacking bonus, you only need +1 higher than whatever the hide is (ie 31 spot).

So the trick is to grant a 31 spot that works ONLY vs creatures that have the 'new invis' effect active, but this seems like it'd be difficult to code up from scratch.

Rather than this, what I was imagining was something along the lines of: alter detect invis spells which presumably already are scripted to specifically negate current 'invisibility' effect (for the creature under the effects of the detection spell; Purge Invis would work differently btw) by altering it to negate the 'new invisibility' effect. If the current invisibility effect is coded in a more or less modular/independent fashion as I'm guessing it might be, this may be much more feasible to implement. i.e. alter Invisibility effect (or create a new version), make sure the current invis/detect invis spells are tied to trigger/block the new invis effect...

I'll see if I can find out how invisibility effect is actually coded and if it can be modularly changed and implemented like this.

[NickD]

What about improved invisibility?

And giving 30+ spot will give casters of See Invisibility/True Seeing/etc the ability to spot legitimately stealthed characters, which it should not.

[Ithildur]

What about improved invisibility?

And giving 30+ spot will give casters of See Invisibility/True Seeing/etc the ability to spot legitimately stealthed characters, which it should not.

Nick, reread what I posted. Both were touched upon.

The trick is rigging up a new invisibility effect, and being able to rig dection spells to work specificly against the new invis effect just like they currently work against the current invis effect. If we can do that the way I'm suggesting somehow, then Imp invis is an easy fix and spotting stealthed characters won't be effected.

[NESchampion]

I would have no problem with giving Warlocks some form of widget to approximate more closely the effects desired. I myself play an Illusionist, so not being able to cast Invisibility or Invisibility Sphere has been really problematic for me. It's a staple of that type of specialist and not having it does hamper my options in terms of escaping or avoiding monsters; I don't even prepare the spell anymore because I don't want to exploit the game but at the same time we're talking about something almost as essential to the life of a wizard as Mage Armor.

Are there any other ideas for resolving this conflict, or have most of them been explored by this point?

[Regalis]

Invisibility is now treated by the engine as also applying the silence effect, in terms of detection. Would you be willing to live with your invis spells also applying the silence effect, Olaf?

It also means casters would have to drop invis to cast additional spells, unless they used the silent spell meta-feat, which ipso facto should help cut down on a lot of potential for abuse. It doesn't impair it serving as a GTFO asset though.

This is the only solution that the engine will support without a very awkward kluge.

[NESchampion]

Invisibility is now treated by the engine as also applying the silence effect, in terms of detection. Would you be willing to live with your invis spells also applying the silence effect, Olaf?

It also means casters would have to drop invis to cast additional spells, unless they used the silent spell meta-feat, which ipso facto should help cut down on a lot of potential for abuse. It doesn't impair it serving as a GTFO asset though.

This is the only solution that the engine will support without a very awkward kluge.

This part already works as per d20 SRD as far as I know; spells that affect foes drop Invisibility and those that don't do not. The character himself is not silenced by the Invisibility effect in terms of being able to speak. I can cast Invisibility and then Expeditious Retreat and remain Invisible; if I cast Invisibility and then Scorching Ray I lose my Invisibility.

The problem is that enemies can't detect invisible players by way of listen vs. move silently.

[Regalis]

I understand that. I'm proposing a solution along different lines. Something that can actually be implemented.

You can't make the detection part work right, period. Caveat, it may be possible to manipulate the perception handler with NWNx4.

Instead of trying to make the spells conform to d20 SRD, which is impossible, we conform the spells to the mechanics of the game. For detection purposes, the spell now works as if the caster is silenced: no move silently check. So one solution to get a consistent result is to have the spell provide the silenced effect to the caster.

That explains why the invisible caster cannot be detected with listen: they're silenced.

Being silenced is a double-edged sword, as opposed to the free gift given to casters now.

You can implement spot detection because it's against a fixed DC. 45 is probably most appropriate, but it could be set at whatever. You can implement the effects of the search toggle, and you give the spotter a momentary blip of see invis, and it doesn't mess up hide's functionality either.

What there is no way to implement is the move silently/listen aspects. Obsidian themselves said invisible creatures are now treated as silenced, and the simplest solution by far is to make them fully silenced.

[NESchampion]

I understand that. I'm proposing a solution along different lines. Something that can actually be implemented.

You can't make the detection part work right, period. Caveat, it may be possible to manipulate the perception handler with NWNx4.

Instead of trying to make the spells conform to d20 SRD, which is impossible, we conform the spells to the mechanics of the game. For detection purposes, the spell now works as if the caster is silenced: no move silently check. So one solution to get a consistent result is to have the spell provide the silenced effect to the caster.

That explains why the invisible caster cannot be detected with listen: they're silenced.

Being silenced is a double-edged sword, as opposed to the free gift given to casters now.

You can implement spot detection because it's against a fixed DC. 45 is probably most appropriate, but it could be set at whatever. You can implement the effects of the search toggle, and you give the spotter a momentary blip of see invis, and it doesn't mess up hide's functionality either.

What there is no way to implement is the move silently/listen aspects. Obsidian themselves said invisible creatures are now treated as silenced, and the simplest solution by far is to make them fully silenced.

I'd have no issue with that as long as there were an easy way to end the spell at will, a widget perhaps. Once again, not that I foresee many abuses even in the current setup for wizards as they cannot cast Invisibility infinite times per day for instance, but if not being able to cast a spell while invisible (and instead being visible for the 6 seconds of casting instead after ending invisibility) is the problem it's not a big deal to me.

[dergon darkhelm]

As one of those aspiring (hopefully future barring horrible, painful death) to be a 3rd lvl Trickery Cleric, I am re-re-resurrecting this thread.

I've read it through and it sounds like Invis is pretty borked. So maybe I can lobby for something different in the Trickery domain.

From a different post re:Trickery Domain I learned that the granted power doesn't give Bluff, Disguise, and Hide to your list of cleric class skills (*sniffs sadly*).

So maybe something like a Camoflage ( 1st level) or Ghostly Visage or Mirror Image (both lvl 2) instead?



oh...and while I'm asking for the moon...and I can allocate "Disguise self" as RP only for my lvl 1 spell?

[Lucifer]

As one of those aspiring (hopefully future barring horrible, painful death) to be a 3rd lvl Trickery Cleric, I am re-re-resurrecting this thread.

I've read it through and it sounds like Invis is pretty borked. So maybe I can lobby for something different in the Trickery domain.

From a different post re:Trickery Domain I learned that the granted power doesn't give Bluff, Disguise, and Hide to your list of cleric class skills (*sniffs sadly*).

So maybe something like a Camoflage ( 1st level) or Ghostly Visage or Mirror Image (both lvl 2) instead?



oh...and while I'm asking for the moon...and I can allocate "Disguise self" as RP only for my lvl 1 spell?

No no no..Your Meddling little Hin will be seen..and crushed

[t-ice]

At least mirror image is far uberpowered for a cleric who have stellar AC potential already. Ghostly Visage the same to a smaller extent. These are "stand and fight" defensive buffs, quite different from invis.

A trickery cleric / rogue should have mojo enough between her spells, heavy armor, and feinted SAs. Hardly immediate need to dash to rescue from the burden of the invis issue.

Alter Self as 24hour duration +10 to disguise skill might be a neat addition, though. Could even serve on the trickery list, I suppose.