Level 1 Start

[Veilan]

I don't really think it's necessary, most low-level mobs are supplied with slings rather than x3 bows and so on.

[Brokenbone]

The crit "insurance" is a nice bone to throw, sure some people are careful about x2 weapons vs. x3 weapons, but not everyone... that includes both players and DMs. Not everyone will always remember that an orc with a 1d8 battle axe is sometimes more hazardous than an orc with a 1d8 longsword, whether spawning them, or choosing whether their PC should tangle with them.

[Veilan]

What better way than to learn that IC, not OOC, by having to be bandaged by a friend because you were smart enough not to go tackle any orc solo on level 1 .

[Brokenbone]

You don't bandage dead PCs, that's called mummification.

Also, people can sure run like hell (ICly) and get shot in the back by something like a x3 arrow, it's not just "gamblers" who think going toe to toe is a good idea. Camera sucks in NWN2, and twitch skills are therefore a necessity.

[oldgrayrogue]

I still do not think there is anything inherently insane IC about fighting an orc, or most other lowly type monsters, alone because you are level 1. It is purely OOC meta thinking in my mind to do so. Avoid two monsters yes. Three certainly. One big scary one, sure. People who walk around with swords and axes are generally not wusses. Players who don't want their new concept to end up in the meat grinder can be though. If your character concept is a coward then fine, but if it isn't its probably OOC meta concerns motivating the behavior.

Yesterday, myself and another player RPd a simple "exploration" static together on TSM. On the way to the destination we were unexpectedly ambushed by three kobold spawns. My toon ended up killing all three. Following that experience why would he think IC that one orc could take him? I as the player know the orc can and that his 1d10 x3 crit weapon can wipe through my 14 HP, but certainly my toon does not know this. Yes he sees a big scary smelly orc with a big axe, but I am a big barb with a sword who just wacked three other monsters yesterday. In my opinion this is the kind of OOC thinking encouraged by a level 1 start, and the reason why some people power grind to level 3. They want to eliminate the paranoia that comes with a very high risk of death. I accept the poll results, and differing opinions, but having to play it IC or play it OOC paranoid is a lousy choice in my book. The crappy choice is compounded for those who don't choose to blow through to level 3 and actually RP the lower levels by either playing a cautious PC or IC risking their lives as their PC would, because you have a bunch of other players out there basically grinding away and advancing without the risk. That is a balance issue to me.

Mr. D is right in his comments that the "tough guys" who don't back down from the fight sometimes meet a tougher guy and die young. I get that and it makes perfect sense. But if our focus is to promote IC RP, a rule which creates the incentive to think OOCly right from the start so your PC can survive, rather than ICly focusing on RP is very questionable to me. As Cloud correctly points out a level 2 or 3 start does NOT eliminate the risk of death by any means. It does eliminate the OOC paranoia and risk of loss of a character that makes a player forgoe RP to grind to survivability or play out of character to survive.

[Blindhamsterman]

very good post OGR, gotta say, I agree with it all entirely.

On the topic of avoiding a single enemy because you're alone and level 1, it's true, IC if your PC isn't supposed to be a complete coward and/or a weekling or non combatant, it makes little sense for said PC to run away and is exactly as you say, OOC meta thinking, purely to avoid the death of said PC. As with you, I've played PCs that are supposed to desire to hone their martial skill and rarely back down (often to the point of near death, even in groups) It's risky, but is equally rewarding.

I'm not convinced that a higher level start is actually the best way to handle this now though, likely it'd be better to simply have things give a higher exp for level 1 PCs than any other level, this actually would make a lot of sense anyway, as learning the early and often easier lessons should happen quickly anyway. Doing the above, would again lower the desire that many have to do static quests to level up asap.

[fluffmonster]

This issue is about the tension between wanting to be the kind of place where people get serious about their characters and form long-term bonds with them, yet also being a dangerous place with the very real threat of PC death. When PCs regularly die at lvl1, and the majority of deaths are, the first goal is completely undermined. We don't want to make it easier or safer to adventure (perhaps wisely), so efficient management of the aforementioned tension really demands a higher starting level. The lowest level will always have the highest probability of death, but the chances of the character lasting long enough to be *something* meaningful to the player will be significantly higher. Just Level 2 start would offer huge gains.

[Veilan]

What is IC about assuming you are tougher than you actually are?

You're not a battle-hardened veteran at level 1. You're slightly above the average commoner, but that's incremental on level 1. Create your character reflecting this, and take pleasure how he grows with the abilities. Or chuckle self-deprecatingly at how he dies a gory death on several orc polearms, getting an end deserving for a farmer brat figuring himself Conan.

Are you all fanatical narrativists, or what is the issue here ? An orc is dangerous even when alone, and if he's toting a great axe, the game proves level 1 characters should not underestimate him. Saying a level 1 character should not be careful about confronting an orc is, by all rules of reality, delusional. Reality: Orc has a good chance of kicking that PC's butt. It's tangible, it can't be argued away.

If people feel adventurous anyway and want to take their chances, that's great! That's the stuff stories begin with. Some of them will come out stronger out of that fight, emboldened and more experienced, and on top of it, having gleaned more of the valuable IC knowledge about how dangerous an orc is. Others will end up orc-roast. It's natural selection, and not every farmer who thinks his pops' olde sword makes him a hero will actually live to be one.

But some will. And their tales shouldn't be cheapened by making everyone able to automatically survive one or rather a couple orcs from the get-go. I understand the appeal of instant gratification, and the desire for playing a hero from the get-go, not a character-growing-to-be-one, but at the end of the day, I don't find it near as rewarding as braving hardships and earning your freedom against the obstacles that the world present, to stick with Sartre.

[Mick]

What is IC about assuming you are tougher than you actually are?

You're not a battle-hardened veteran at level 1. You're slightly above the average commoner, but that's incremental on level 1.

I don't care about this one way or the other, but this part of your argument has no teeth.

There are plenty of kids just out of high school who are filled with bravado and who think they can take on the world. Even more so who fall into a gang or who participate in military training of some sort at a young age. Sometimes when they mix it up they do well, sometimes they get their ass handed to them (with or without learning in the process), and unfortunately sometimes they die.

Without getting into a discussion about what training or skills one might acquire in those RL situations, it is easy to extrapolate to our game, where children in some cultures are taught to hunt or fight or even forced to go to war from a very early age.

I had a PC a while back who died to a single orc he encountered on the road. I had spent the better part of a week coming up with his bio and he had just made second level. He was a Bedine warrior and he'd be damned if he was going to avoid one orc on the road. An ogre or troll, perhaps, but not an orc. Hell, he had gotten into a CvC literally 10 minutes after creation on the docks of SM after an arrogant elf, who I didn't know from Elminster, insulted him. That orc killed him with a critical hit. I really liked that PC. It sucked when he bought it. But it was completely IC for him to face that menace on the road. There is no way you can convince me it was not.

[Brokenbone]

Neat post from Mick.

PCs are like, the top 1% ICly. Their fellow villagers (or other people surrounding them in youth) all have crappier ability scores (less point buy), typically no levels in any class, but maybe Warrior, Adept or Expert for the real high muckety muck NPCs. PCs get shiny classes like Fighter or Cleric instead... better BAB, better saves, better spell selections, all kinds of cool stuff that sets them apart. In a lot of common PCs backgrounds, if you had a rogue 1, maybe no lock in your village can stop you! Even the village headman may have a DC20 lock at best on the village treasury of 300gp (AKA, your starting money).

Is it any wonder that as basically a superhero you might have a bit of swagger in your step?

...

Tension though arises when you go to the big city, none of the NPCs say anything to you unless they're merchants/bartenders, and anyone with anything interesting to say is another human-controlled PC who is also a superhero. Weird. Just different than PnP where it's only 4 against the DM's world, as opposed to 90 PCs in a sporadically DM'd world. It's funny that you could have a "toughest SOB in the village" bio, it's perfectly IC, but as soon as you get to an ALFA PC congregation point, you realize that your shortsword, longbow and hard-bought starting chain shirt are like sticks and tissue paper compared to what even the drunkest guy in the tavern is sporting. Oh well.

[oldgrayrogue]

I understand the appeal of instant gratification, and the desire for playing a hero from the get-go, not a character-growing-to-be-one, but at the end of the day, I don't find it near as rewarding as braving hardships and earning your freedom against the obstacles that the world present, to stick with Sartre.

A level 2 or 3 PC is not a hero, just as a level 1 PC is not a commoner. As Mick aptly points out, a lot of "tough guys" are far from heros. When you look at the fact that the "hardships braved to earn your freedom" for most new PCs takes all of 2 or 3 RL days for most people, some of whom just chat by the fire round the clock and never leave town, the argument falls of its own weight. That is the reality that a change in the rule would address. I repeat, this is not some plea for softcore instant gratification. It is a call to avoid the instant denial of future gratification that results when a good concept dies quickly -- which you can avoid of course if you deny that concept's personality and OOC don't ever leave town alone until level 2 or 3 or meta refuse to take on any challenge that you can lose.

[Brokenbone]

Ugh, completely different thought I forgot to post, the above was really just about IC, this one is about systems.

Fancy this: a PC starts out with 1000xp, enough to buy 2nd level. Woot.

They also start with a token or other wacky thing undroppable from inventory that eats the first 1000xp they earn, then once it's not hungry anymore, it vanishes. POOF!

Basically an XP loan (interest free).

Even if it can't be done automatically, having a silly piece of paper in the inventory reminding them to ask a DM to subtract 1000xp once they have about 2001xp would be good enough too, or telling them "please don't level to 3rd without having a DM come around and drain some XP", etc. Again, assuming not worth technical resources to script something that a reminder note could achieve.

[Veilan]

What is IC about assuming you are tougher than you actually are?

You're not a battle-hardened veteran at level 1. You're slightly above the average commoner, but that's incremental on level 1.

I don't care about this one way or the other, but this part of your argument has no teeth.

There are plenty of kids just out of high school who are filled with bravado and who think they can take on the world. Even more so who fall into a gang or who participate in military training of some sort at a young age. Sometimes when they mix it up they do well, sometimes they get their ass handed to them (with or without learning in the process), and unfortunately sometimes they die.

So you actually agree with me that it's perfectly fine and realistic for not every level 1 that goes looking for trouble to succeed.

I had a PC a while back who died to a single orc he encountered on the road. I had spent the better part of a week coming up with his bio and he had just made second level. He was a Bedine warrior and he'd be damned if he was going to avoid one orc on the road. An ogre or troll, perhaps, but not an orc. Hell, he had gotten into a CvC literally 10 minutes after creation on the docks of SM after an arrogant elf, who I didn't know from Elminster, insulted him. That orc killed him with a critical hit. I really liked that PC. It sucked when he bought it. But it was completely IC for him to face that menace on the road. There is no way you can convince me it was not.

First of all, sorry for your loss. It always sucks to lose a character - but that is what makes them valuable, not just energizer-bunnies that you can swap the battery if they stop working.

I'm not saying or even trying to convince you that it wasn't IC for your Bedine to face that orc. What I'm saying is, it's realistic that you may end up on the short end. If your character is proud, valiant and courageous at level 1 - then that's that, just realise it's a damn dangerous world to be that in. Those traits should, in many cases, probably develop with experience rather than be there at level 1. Your character probably never fought an orc before... else his char sheet might not read 0xp, or he might not be alive .

We're not in a narrativistic world where we can simply pick the unlikeliest of traits for survival and say "but I am playing that one character out of thousands, for the story's sake, that actually survived with that.".

PCs are like, the top 1% ICly. Their fellow villagers (or other people surrounding them in youth) all have crappier ability scores (less point buy), typically no levels in any class, but maybe Warrior, Adept or Expert for the real high muckety muck NPCs. PCs get shiny classes like Fighter or Cleric instead... better BAB, better saves, better spell selections, all kinds of cool stuff that sets them apart. In a lot of common PCs backgrounds, if you had a rogue 1, maybe no lock in your village can stop you! Even the village headman may have a DC20 lock at best on the village treasury of 300gp (AKA, your starting money).

Is it any wonder that as basically a superhero you might have a bit of swagger in your step?

So, yeah, and all this means your chances of winning a fight against a commoner are somewhat better than his are. That does not make you a superhero. Guess by the actual, gasps, mechanics of the game, 35% or so of the times you're going to get your ass kicked by that fat tavernkeep commoner. Abilities mean what they mean in game, nothing more, nothing less. They don't empower you more than the game engine say they do. Your character should know that he's not a "superhero" compared to the people around him, he should know he's got slightly better odds, maybe in 10 barfights he came out on top in 6 or 7. So if your character takes that increase in your odds as justifying you're a superhero... well, again, your char better not have a positive wis modifier .

[SwordSaintMusashi]

Its assumed you've fought or trained or done something to get to Level 1. Just because you have "0" exp doesn't mean you haven't fought an orc before: it was just part of the endeavor to push you outside of commoner and into the land of an adventurer.

And that commoner has as much chance of defeating you as the average house cat does, and that is only because of game mechanics. That fighter in chainmail just coming out of the fighter academy, or army reserve of his nation or what have you has about and 18 AC, and a base attack bonus of at least 1 (likely 4 or 5 with strength and weapon focus).

A commoner has all 10s and 11s for stats. A commoner has no attack bonus (unless he is an older commoner, and even then, stat penalties probably apply). So he needs to literally roll a 15-18 to hit that fighter. That's not a 35% chance. That's a 15% chance. Even in a hit, he's doing 1d3 damage and provoking an attack of opportunity (or a whole 1d4 if he got his hands on a dagger!) In the mean time, in said bar fight, the fighter has already knocked that whole 6 hp off the commoner with a mere punch.

Adventurers are, as BB said, the top of the crop of an adventure world. They aren't "slightly better than a commoner" - they are worlds above them. If they were just slightly, nothing would stop every commoner from becoming an adventurer, because frankly, being a commoner sucks.

The average level 1 character classed PC is a super-hero compared to his NPC commoner peers. If we're going by game mechanics.

Edit - For note, I voted "Don't Know/Don't Care". I personally prefer level 2 starting, but that's a personal opinion and ALFA's level 1 start has not hindered me in the least.

[Veilan]

You're assuming gear here, I was assuming unarmed brawl, or even comparable gear, and guestimating from there.

And yes, that's game mechanics "only" - however, they are the arbiters of our world, ignoring them isn't really an option, unless you go find a narrativism-only board game or the like . The game mechanics determine how good you are, through their application of their laws simulating a reality. That reality is "real" and the foundation on which your character should act, because he doesn't know anything different.