NWN2: XP caps discussion

Vendrin · Post by **Vendrin** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:54 am

coach wrote:hehe, these peeps arguing about not wanting to cap must really know how to find the xp

my PC this week in three DM led quest sessions:

6 hours sunday = 0 xp
4 1/2 hours tuesday = 0xp
3 1/2 hours friday = 120 xp

15 hours (DMs on at all times) = 120xp

now, don't cry for me cause i had a blast

I'm glad you had a blast, but dms really should award the standards for that time. Otherwise it might look like other pcs who are just getting standards like pgers since they are advancing at the correct pace, which is more then you are since you are getting so little xp.

Keith Mac · Post by **Keith Mac** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:13 pm

And for the record Keith, I wouldn't oppose 1 lvl / month, no. But I don't like the idea of having to manage that out of game. We build the rule into the game so there cannot be exceptions and we free DMs of one more out of game responsibility, or it's all a moot point to me.

If the management of the XP cap is going to be implemented IG then I would propose:

1500 to 2000 weekly cap(no arguments on any thread I have seen)

RP scripted XP mandatory for all servers.

No static combat XP(Keep in mind that for combat your RP scripted XP will be running and hence you are still getting XP for participating in killing the whole nest of Spiders)

DM awards to be simple and consistent(25 -100 XP per RL hour for regular sessions, 10-25 XP for on the spot exceptional RP, and 200 additional XP per session for long campaigns on top of the 25-100 per hour) and should be in addition to the scripted RP XP.

No need for level validation, no cries of farming, no cries of unfair rewards but with enough room for true unbalanced PC advancement which is what we should strive for.

If we can not implement this IG management then I would push for the DF method to be implemented accross alfa:

Before being validated for level 4 you must submit a Bio to your home server's DM team at which point they will start a PC thread for your character(assuming it hasn't already been started by a zealous DM) and you level four advancement will have a clocked in date ingrained into this thread that can be observed by DM's and higher up's.

If you move to a new server and plan to stay there you need to do your homework first and ask the thread be moved to said server, and possibly you could have two server teams with the same thread. In this case information should be shared.

Advancement from level four onward can only take place at a maximum of once in any given month and needs to be reported into said thread by which ever DM validates the PC. This will ensure records of advancement are available.

RP scripted XP mandatory for all servers.

No static combat XP(Keep in mind that for combat your RP scripted XP will be running and hence you are still getting XP for participating in killing the whole nest of Spiders)

DM awards to be simple and consistent(25 -100 XP per RL hour for regular sessions, 10-25 XP for on the spot exceptional RP, and 200 additional XP per session for long campaigns on top of the 25-100 per hour) and should be in addition to the scripted RP XP.

This proposal would need to keep level validation, but arguably would still share the first proposals fix of no cries of farming, no cries of unfair rewards but with enough room for true unbalanced PC advancement which is what we should strive for. Also this proposal requires what I consider to be limited work on the part of the DM in that the DM will have to validate and make small postings in the server's DM forum. This is not too much to ask and in my opinion should be a standard(but that is another discussion). Also it requires players to take a interest in their toon enoughto at least write a Bio for their server team to keep on file for aiding DM events/decision/updates etc. which I also think should be a standard and not too much to ask for from a level four PC(again that would be another discussion).

Soooooo IMO that leaves us with the obvious: Can number one definately get implemented with ease? If so it would be the easy choice here.

HEEGZ · Post by **HEEGZ** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:39 pm

Keith Mac wrote:If the management of the XP cap is going to be implemented IG then I would propose:

1500 to 2000 weekly cap(no arguments on any thread I have seen)

RP scripted XP mandatory for all servers.

No static combat XP(Keep in mind that for combat your RP scripted XP will be running and hence you are still getting XP for participating in killing the whole nest of Spiders)

DM awards to be simple and consistent(25 -100 XP per RL hour for regular sessions, 10-25 XP for on the spot exceptional RP, and 200 additional XP per session for long campaigns on top of the 25-100 per hour) and should be in addition to the scripted RP XP.

No need for level validation, no cries of farming, no cries of unfair rewards but with enough room for true unbalanced PC advancement which is what we should strive for.

I am much more fond of the DF way of doing things than what you have posted up here. If we did a cap I would prefer it to be monthly, not weekly. I am against mandatory XP for RP scripts for server approval, same with no xp from static combat spawns. As for level validation, I am for it, but there are so many variables I can honestly see alot of things working out pretty well.

Keith Mac wrote:Soooooo IMO that leaves us with the obvious: Can number one definately get implemented with ease? If so it would be the easy choice here.

By number one do you mean the weekly cap?

Keith Mac · Post by **Keith Mac** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:23 am

I personally would like option #2 as well, but I didn't think it would get as much backing as the first since it will require a little bit of paperwork on the part of the DM's and Players. Also it wouldn't be able to be scripted and will not eliminate level validation. I repeat however that I would prefer this system. To be clear however I have no problem with the first system either as it will be possible to script, and will eliminate level validation. Also I just can't grasp how anyone would be burdened by a 1500-2000 per week XP cap. If no one actually gets that much in a week(raise your hand if you do please) then why would anyone care if there is a cap that prevents it? That said change it to 6000-8000 XP per month *shrugs* I don't care one bit....the proposal would still be the same from my perspective.

Curious:

Why would you be against the XP script?

Also if there is an XP script for "activity" you will still be getting XP for killing static spawns. You just will not be getting more XP then the person who is practicing with a combat dummy or preaching to his flock in the temple halls. The XP will come to you when the DM logs in and waves the wand instead of after each kill. Don't get me wrong I like getting XP for each kill but I also see a need for compromise here and we need to start somewhere. I think either of these proposals are just that...a middle ground compromise that doesn't hurt either side of the fence. It drastically reduces the need to police farming while at the same time allows "true adventurers" to do their thing and still get rewarded slightly better then those conversing in the local inn about who will take who home tonight.

HEEGZ · Post by **HEEGZ** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:34 am

Basically, I don't like the idea of it really. If some server teams would want to use the scripts, that is up to them. For myself, I would rather have a log PM'd to me of the RP sessions, then skim through and award XP next time I see the participants. I don't really like fully automated stuff and would rather know for what I am granting XP. I'm here for the RP, and I enjoy reading that of others as well. I'm mostly concerned that any system we use gets too focused on crunching acceptable amounts for XP rewards, and loses track of our goal of hard core role play. I'm pretty open minded, but XP scripts are not for me as I would prefer to be more hands on in how I reward RP as a DM.

Keith Mac · Post by **Keith Mac** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:06 am

I feel ya...heres the deal however...the XP script isn't automated in that the XP gets dished out automatically...so in your case you dont have to award said PC's with the wand..in fact you can clear their logged RP...and ask for "logs" that you can review and no harm no foul. I personally think that it is a huge boon for players to know that even if a dm is not IG they can be "advancing" their PC's through this method. It would most certainly increase player density I can assure you.

HEEGZ · Post by **HEEGZ** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:09 am

Yeah we have the scripts on BG, but they are unused. I disagree about player density increasing due to having the scripts in though. I think XP scripts would not have nearly as large a factor on density as properly designed servers will.

Keith Mac · Post by **Keith Mac** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:50 pm

Well I agree with the effect of a server waying heavier then the effect of the script, but I would bet at 100-1 odds that the script would help...even if only a little...and there are literaly no detrimental effects....so the question remians why not?

The answer can not be that someone won't use it because they do not have to!

HEEGZ · Post by **HEEGZ** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:05 pm

hmm, i'd rather read an RP log than award rp xp from a script. this is a personal preference, i don't have an opinion so much on what other DMs do.

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:57 pm

HEEGZ wrote:hmm, i'd rather read an RP log than award rp xp from a script. this is a personal preference, i don't have an opinion so much on what other DMs do. 8)

Scalability is the issue with that. You may have the time to do that for your players, but it becomes problematic for PCs that don't have such a DM. The concept is the same either way - reward PCs for being IG & IC. This avoids them simply checking the login screen to see if anyone's on, then going to play DDO or some such because the server's empty. Less of an issue if we do NWN2 right, but *shrugs*

If we keep the scripts as part of the ACR, then any team that prefers to parse logs can still do so. You simply have an additional data point with the IG time it took them to do all that (yes, that's in the logs also), and an automated script to award XP based upon your review of the logs. This keeps things within 'standards' for such. Nothing stops you from rewarding more/less than the scripts calculate. Personally, I do some log reviews, stealth DMing, and ask other players to get a feel for what's going on when I'm not actively DMing. I know (generally) what I'm awarding for without needing the player's logs :)

My issue with level validation is that it becomes essentially a popularity contest or a rubber stamp. The latter at least functions as a stopgap for horrible exploits, but 1984 will check that just as easy. The former essentially means you need to know a DM well to advance (as asking several DMs until one says yes is essentially rubber stamp).

HEEGZ · Post by **HEEGZ** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:01 pm

Good points. I'll have a chat with the DF DMs and get more specifics on how they handle things. I can see rewarding from a XP script after doing a quick review like you mentioned, or a portion of it, etc.

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:13 pm

I just finished a function which handles RP-XP, amung other things, to the XP standards. The intention is to add it to the ACR. Like Fionn says, DMs control the awarding of banked RP XP, so I don't see any reason not to include these scripts in the ACR.

Hopefully OE will get some of the other PC-creature events working so we can track things like emotes and speach to judge AFKness...

HEEGZ · Post by **HEEGZ** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:22 pm

Good to know. I look forward to testing this stuff

Fionn · Post by **Fionn** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:09 pm

One point - if a DM is choosing to handle XP outside that script, *every* DM on the server needs to do so, or all DMs must zero out the script when they manually award.

Would it be possible to include a boolean to turn the counter on/off in case a server wished to use their own system?

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:15 pm

Fionn wrote:One point - if a DM is choosing to handle XP outside that script, *every* DM on the server needs to do so, or all DMs must zero out the script when they manually award.

The way the script currently works prevents it from stacking with any other sort of XP awarding.