Judging creature strength

[Mayhem]

Bear in mind, this isn't (as far as I understand it) going to replace simply familiarity with a creature.

IE - not really required upon seeing an goblin or orc, when everyone knows what a goblin looks like.

Its more llike - OK, I can see its a goblin, but does it handle itself in such a way as to indicate that its a goblin-warrior-hero capabably of kicking an ogres teeth in? Or is it just a typical goblin raider?

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*going off on a tangent*

To a certain extent, we don't need mechanics at all, we just need builders who are willign to tweak their descriptions slightly.

Perhaps rather than a mechanism, we need a kind of "quality control" where all creatures that are to be put into a spawn are drawn from a central pool rather than customised for a given server.

You want to spawn a band of tough warrior goblins, you create them, submit them to "creature central" and they are reviewed, their descriptions checked for clues as to their level of dangerousity, and then made available to all builders in the next update.

So a "Goblin with a number of scars, with several scalps hung from his belt, and carrying a good quality weapon clearly prised from the hand of a dead hero" in Daggerford is the same challenge as "Goblin with a number of scars, with several scalps hung from his belt, and carrying a good quality weapon clearly prised from the hand of a dead hero" in the Triboar hills.

As opposed to now, where "Default goblin description" can be anything from CR 1/2 sword fodder to something that'll rout a typical L3 party without breaking a sweat.

***

In almost a reverse sense, it means some info can be removed from the names. That goblin with a crossbow will have the name "Goblin" instead of Goblin Crossbowman or "Goblin Shaman" - only on examining will you notice that one is festooned with eldritch tatoos and totemic fetishes.

***

Of course, that would mean the only requirement for good scouting was being able to see them before they see you.

And it moves sort of into Meta - A long term player, who has just started a new 1st level PC will know more about a given creature than perhaps they should.

Now, if the amount of description that was shown were linked to a roll...

[Amar]

significant rewards from static content.

There are rewards?

Since when?

Darn, maybe Ill start playing again...

[psycho_leo]

And it moves sort of into Meta - A long term player, who has just started a new 1st level PC will know more about a given creature than perhaps they should.

It's already like that anyway. Unlesss you create you new lvl 1 PC on another server that you never played on. If you play for a long time in a server you know what caves yo can't take you weakling lvl 1 to and the ones you can. There's no way to avoid that.

[Fionn]

And it moves sort of into Meta - A long term player, who has just started a new 1st level PC will know more about a given creature than perhaps they should.

It's already like that anyway. Unlesss you create you new lvl 1 PC on another server that you never played on. If you play for a long time in a server you know what caves yo can't take you weakling lvl 1 to and the ones you can. There's no way to avoid that.

Well, actualy there is. You avoid peeps using meta knowledge from the MM by making CR8 Goblins, Skeletons with 10 ranks in Listen, etc. This rather screws anyone that's fought such mobs IC elsewhere.

IMO, this entire thread is a band-aid for the actual problem: Inconsistant and non-canon building of mobs/encounters. If a builder creates mobs per the MM, then all our mobs should be similar. Where you wish to deviate significantly, there should be *some* IC way of discovering this short of loosing a toon or 3 and choosing to meta that experiance to the next.

[fluffmonster]

Fionn's got it pretty much right..the real problem is bad spawn building. spawns should not be deviating much from baseline canon creatures. DM drops, sure anything, but then you have a DM to RP the kind of things trying to be automated.

[Ronan]

Fionn's got it pretty much right..the real problem is bad spawn building. spawns should not be deviating much from baseline canon creatures.

Meh, I'd say its fine to deviate, as long as builders understand game balance, and the powers and capabilities of the mobs they are creating in relation to ones from the monster manuals. Having every goblin be exactly what is listed in the MM is a bit boring, IMO. Goblins can be given plenty of (N)PC classes to give them variety. However, if you don't understand how to balance an encounter, you've got no business customizing any monsters which are statically spawned. The MM entries represent your average combatant for that race, so there should be good room for variety. Hopefully we'll be able to include enough monsters in the base mod that builders won't be left to do much on their own.

I'm just a bit skeptical that builders will follow the MMs. They've always been there. MM1 is even available through the SRD, and most people could pirate them if they wished. Yet in many cases they've been totally ignored. I can't really understand the mindset of that, though I know a lot of it has been in reaction to overpowered PCs.

[Fionn]

Deviation is adding a Goblin Warpriest with a few levels of Druid. What we've seen is Orcs with a +30 Spot.

If you need a mob that PC's don't know, either find an esoteric source, or make one up. Simply altering the base for a canon race seriously fubars consistancy.

[Mayhem]

I'm just a bit skeptical that builders will follow the MMs.

Hence my suggestion that any Mob that is to be put into a static be taken from a central database rather than custom created on a given server.

It sounds like more work, but it isn't really.

It means some people need to verify the mobs and add them to the database.

But at the same time it means that if you need a goblin that has been beefed up, somebody else has likely already built one, with an appropriate description. All you need to do, likely, is change name and maybe colouration to suit your local tribe.

[Ronan]

Hence my suggestion that any Mob that is to be put into a static be taken from a central database rather than custom created on a given server.

Well, thats a given, we are planning on adding as many canon mobs as we can to the haks, actually replacing standard resource mobs. But we can't tell builders they HAVE to use these mobs... There are just too many cases where builders need to be able to make something of their own. The last thing I want to do is reduce a builder's options and creativity. And besides, most builders aren't the sort to toolset ridiculous monsters, and they follow the rules just fine.

+30 spot? Jeez. On BG we had trolls with +5 enhancement c-weapons, and the things that killed Valdur had +7 damage c-weapons. DF has a lot of things (likes orcs and kobolds) with +d6 elemental damage projectiles, but I've never stayed there long enough to really get idea of what the other monsters are like. SD has a few little "hidden gems" as well, with a nasty CR 12 gobo chieftan waiting at the end of a normal CR 1/2 to 2 goblin camp. But I guess TPI's beholder tops them all? Wait, maybe not. Just remembered BG's "haste" basilisks with constant-effect death-gaze (not even flesh to stone) in a wide arc in front of them.

PS: If anyone encounters similarly retarded spawns on BG, I'll gladly fix the spawn and give the PC a do-over if they died. Though BG's wilderness is supposed to be very dangerous, it probably has some things left over from the olde days which are more than silly. BG's spawns are close enough to be canon-ish that I think we can offer this and know it won't be something we'd have to make good on too often.

PPS: Just found a NPC on BG with 15 (count 'em, yes five-and-ten) potions of heal (yes, the level 6 spell), a +5 shield and +3 full plate. *deletes*