Crafting with Special Materials

[Veilan]

I was being serious, too. The awesome and prestige sometimes is immeasurable in effective plus equivalents.

I do not consider such an item wasted at all, due to the benefits I named.

[Blindhamsterman]

theres a shocker, seems we are in agreement then

[mogonk]

The rules for mithral weapons don't make even a little bit of sense, anyhow.

A shortsword weighs 2 lbs., is considered a light weapon, and can be weapon finessed. A rapier weighs 2 lbs., is considered a one-handed weapon, and can be weapon finessed. A mithral longsword weighs 2 lbs., is considered a one handed weapon, and cannot ever under any circumstances be weapon finessed. But a 4 lbs. light mace? Hell yeah. Weapon finesse that all day. How about a rapier made of solid gold that weighs 4lbs.? Sure, you can weapon finesse that, because it's a rapier.



Find any kind of logic or consistency there and you win a cookie.

[Keryn]

Well that was exactly my point in regards to the IG value of the item not so much about how much it costs to produce. Unless of course as if was stated by Veilan there is RP value, and it is a prestige item, which was exactly the case in the example I mentioned.

Since the situation is with my PC I'm comfortable with the situation, and even think the value might be justified, or even more -if- the RP value of such item is recognized otherwise it becomes indeed an item that makes no real sense.

A mithril rapier will have IMO an obvious value due to be crafted with a rare material that carries particular relevance to most, Mithril alone makes people wonder about special powerfull items even if it isn't the case, and for being so rare it can become a symbol of prestige, and wealth.

Now in this particular case, and I confess that was also my mistake for not checking before hand with DMs and maybe even with standards, the reason I made the bow in duskwood was exactly for its RP value, since I remember reading in some source, that elves had this bow that was quite rare and valued for being made with duskwood, that allowed them to deflect blows while in melee. I have looked to find this reference, and have still not found it, but bottom down. If this piece of lore is recognized and accepted (worth to mention I dont think anything should be added mechanic wise), then there we have the prestigious part of the item which was the whole point since my PC being a Master Boywer would obviously carry a top craft with him, more then its mechanics the point was to have a bow that matched his skills.

But if there is nothing prestige or whatever that compensates for its insanely high value. Then regarding wealth standards its sort of a problem because like someone mentioned, if the item is useless despite being made with a rare material, the market price will be much lower then the price to make the item, and maybe this should be reflected on the item itself. Now I do understand this would open up a door with might not wish to open... we cannot most likely do a ruling on this that would work for all items and to price such cases on a case by case basis would not be effective. So unless there is some sort of rule we can establish for these cases I think the issue is pretty much dead.

Maybe if the item doesn't retain any benefit from the special material we could price it as a normal item + 1/4 of the special material cost to make a distinction, unless the RP value justifies it. Just food for thought.

[t-ice]

But if there is nothing prestige or whatever that compensates for its insanely high value. Then regarding wealth standards its sort of a problem because like someone mentioned, if the item is useless despite being made with a rare material, the market price will be much lower then the price to make the item, and maybe this should be reflected on the item itself.

If there's a problem here, it's a problem not with the item, but with the wealth table and the way it's imposed. Thus, if it's to be fixed, it should go along a special case in the wealth table, not item prices.

[JaydeMoon]

I'm going to go ahead and explain why special materials rapier is still gonna cost so much and still count against your value as much.

First off, let's all agree that a large ruby has no intrinsic 'character' value. It does nothing to your mechanics. You have a ruby, so what? It's a 5000 gp slingstone.

But if I say to you, "Ruby, it is valued at 5000 gp," you're not gonna bat an eye. You're not gonna complain about it in a thread, your not going to call me a meanie DM or try to say wealth tables are broken.

Why? Because you EXPECT a ruby to be at that level of value and in the end, you agree that ultimately that ruby can be liquidated and indirectly turned into a +1 sword, +1 armor, and +1 shield.

So it is with a mithril rapier. It's value has less to do with any additional mechanical abilities (which are not cost effective) but because you can liquidate the item and turn it into a stack of +1 Cold Arrows or something.

So, yes... if you are carrying around an array of mithril weaponry, you are notnbeing cost effective in terms of mechanics, but it's YOUR fault. Just like someone who likes to carry around a bag of high value gems can't fault the ALFA wealth system for not having a cost effective character.

If you want to be cost effective, find a high end weapon merchant or collectibles trader and haggle a good deal out of him, using your diplomacy skill, then turn around and buy a +1 Rapier.

Just so you know, if you put that ruby into a rapier hilt, that rapier is gonna be worth something like 5040 gp. It's gonna count against your PC at the 5040 gp level.

But don't go crying that I'm making you carry a 5040 gp rapier around. It's a 40 gp rapier and a 5000 gp ruby.

Same with the mithril rapier. It's a 340 gp rapier (MW) crafted out of ~6000gp worth of mithril.

You don't like it? Sell it and buy a magic sword instead.

[t-ice]

While the "effeciency" idea works very neatly in its own niche of adventurers-all-from-the-same-mold-in-society, forcing a strict wealthcurve on all PCs on a PW is a rather harsh immersion breaker imo. Of course it rather comes down to DM styles, and paths it is wished PCs can take. But I thought the whole concept of "RP wealth" in alfa was to allow PCs of different IC total wealth levels.

It can be argued just how liquidable a ruby-hilted mithral rapier is, but I thought "RP wealth" is rather an understanding with the player that it won't be liquidated, rather than can't be.

[danielmn]

I'm going to go ahead and explain why special materials rapier is still gonna cost so much and still count against your value as much.

First off, let's all agree that a large ruby has no intrinsic 'character' value. It does nothing to your mechanics. You have a ruby, so what? It's a 5000 gp slingstone.

But if I say to you, "Ruby, it is valued at 5000 gp," you're not gonna bat an eye. You're not gonna complain about it in a thread, your not going to call me a meanie DM or try to say wealth tables are broken.

Why? Because you EXPECT a ruby to be at that level of value and in the end, you agree that ultimately that ruby can be liquidated and indirectly turned into a +1 sword, +1 armor, and +1 shield.

So it is with a mithril rapier. It's value has less to do with any additional mechanical abilities (which are not cost effective) but because you can liquidate the item and turn it into a stack of +1 Cold Arrows or something.

So, yes... if you are carrying around an array of mithril weaponry, you are notnbeing cost effective in terms of mechanics, but it's YOUR fault. Just like someone who likes to carry around a bag of high value gems can't fault the ALFA wealth system for not having a cost effective character.

If you want to be cost effective, find a high end weapon merchant or collectibles trader and haggle a good deal out of him, using your diplomacy skill, then turn around and buy a +1 Rapier.

Just so you know, if you put that ruby into a rapier hilt, that rapier is gonna be worth something like 5040 gp. It's gonna count against your PC at the 5040 gp level.

But don't go crying that I'm making you carry a 5040 gp rapier around. It's a 40 gp rapier and a 5000 gp ruby.

Same with the mithril rapier. It's a 340 gp rapier (MW) crafted out of ~6000gp worth of mithril.

You don't like it? Sell it and buy a magic sword instead.

That is incorrect. You're actually carring around a ruby worth 2,500 gold peices, since the sell rate for gems is 50% worth. Oh no, but wait....since the gemstores on certain servers only give you a max of 1,000 gold for any one item...that ruby is really only worth 1,000 to a player, even if it's original worth was 20,000. Reformulate the arguement and get back to me...

[JaydeMoon]

Nope, it's worth 5000 as long as you carry it.

If you choose to sell it via scripted merchant and only get 1% of the value, that's your choice. But HEY! At least you cleared up 4950 in extraneous wealth and now you can get some Jayde13wt for Christmas.

Or B you can see if a DM will run a merchant session with you where the the DM can determine how badly the merchant wants to purchase the merchandise and how your diplomacy skill affects the outcome. There could even be situations where the PC has the upper hand in negotiations (like an actual merchant might) and can get the full value or more (yes, chances of this happening are rare, but it is possible)!

Alternately perhaps you can barter away the ruby getting closer to its full value.

Again, it all depends on how things play out, but ultimately a 5000 gp ruby takes up 5000 gp of your wealth.

It can be argued just how liquidable a ruby-hilted mithral rapier is, but I thought "RP wealth" is rather an understanding with the player that it won't be liquidated, rather than can't be.

I think you are referring here to 'uncounted wealth'

Uncounted Wealth is meant to primarily emphasize RP-value assets. It is considered the “accepted” form of infinite wealth acquisition, as opposed to obtaining better and better magical gear. Many of these assets, such as businesses, have the potential to be a recurring revenue stream for player characters and should be monitored carefully. Some common forms of Uncounted Wealth include: non-magical clothing, housing, licenses and permits, businesses (within limits), retainers and employees (with limited capabilities, e.g. no assassins), and memberships in exclusive clubs. Other seemingly inappropriate ones, for example a gem collection, can be considered as long as there is a clear code of behavior the PC will follow to avoid its liquidation. HDM discretion dictates whether a given piece of wealth falls into this category. A DM wealth tool will be available to allow DMs to make a quick assessment of the total carried wealth of a PC.

So if you are, indeed, a collector of fine mithril weapons and convince the HDM that this is the case, giving you no (or very very very little) mechanical value... then the cost of a mithril rapier against your total character wealth is 0.

But this is different from carrying a mithril rapier around on you, using it on your adventuars.

EDIT: I'd like to note that the wealth guidelines use of 'seemingly inappropriate' for the example of a 'gem collection'. I'll go out on a limb and say a 'mithril weapon collection' would also fall into the realm of seemingly inappropriate. The seemingly inappropriate is a reference to the highly liquifiable nature of such a collection.

[Brokenbone]

Melt down your objets d'art and make them into efficient armor for pity's sake.

[danielmn]

"Nope, it's worth 5000 as long as you carry it.

If you choose to sell it via scripted merchant and only get 1% of the value, that's your choice. But HEY! At least you cleared up 4950 in extraneous wealth and now you can get some Jayde13wt for Christmas.

Or B you can see if a DM will run a merchant session with you where the the DM can determine how badly the merchant wants to purchase the merchandise and how your diplomacy skill affects the outcome. There could even be situations where the PC has the upper hand in negotiations (like an actual merchant might) and can get the full value or more (yes, chances of this happening are rare, but it is possible)!

Alternately perhaps you can barter away the ruby getting closer to its full value.

Again, it all depends on how things play out, but ultimately a 5000 gp ruby takes up 5000 gp of your wealth."

Indeed the choices are A. Sell the 5,000 gold piece ruby for 1,000 gold so that the next dm can give you another gem worth 5,000 gold that you can sell for 1,000 gold...

B. A merchant/dm event. I haven't heard of anyone doing this in a long while...the last DM I remember doing this sort of thing quit BG a while back...

[Galadorn]

B. A merchant/dm event. I haven't heard of anyone doing this in a long while...the last DM I remember doing this sort of thing quit BG a while back...

The only DM events I have participated in in almost a month have been merchant/DM events. They still occur! And they only take a small amount of time. Just ask and see if a DM has 10 minutes to RP with a merchant. *shrugs*

[Blindhamsterman]

B. A merchant/dm event. I haven't heard of anyone doing this in a long while...the last DM I remember doing this sort of thing quit BG a while back...

The only DM events I have participated in in almost a month have been merchant/DM events. They still occur! And they only take a small amount of time. Just ask and see if a DM has 10 minutes to RP with a merchant. *shrugs*

The DM Dan was refering to was himself btw Galadorn

[JaydeMoon]

Just ask and see if a DM has 10 minutes to RP with a merchant. *shrugs*

inorite?

[danielmn]

My bad, I typically tend not to slam Dm's with Pm's on board or in game due to my consideration of their time. I'll be sure to make myself known from here on out. Incessantly, most likely.