Level 1 Start

[rorax]

Imagine this - how would you want to meet the woman of your dreams? work the hard way up with her and "win" her eventually, successfully passing every crisis point along the way on your own?

Or

Pick up the phone and order 5K woman from Ukraine who looks like a super model, cook, have sex, clean the house and automatically agree with everything you say?


Seriously?

You have to ask??

This was suppose to be honey trap question to lure Rotku into answering funny stuff! instead he decided to to answer seriously...

[danielmn]

When people talk about starting at level 2 or 3, are they meaning starting with 1000, or 3000xp? Or meaning that even ECL races start at these higher levels?

If you'll start at level 3, people would still do quests the same rate as they did if they started at level one. Then they would quickly reach level 4, and we'll have the same issues all over again..."why start on level 3 when people quickly level to level 4 through quests anyhow, lets just skip that stage and start on 4th right away..."

I'm told over in Exodus they had problems with static grinding the first few levels. However, once they added a level 3 start, it more or less vanished. Seems people were simply grinding to get out of that original low level area.

If we are doing this, I would go XP wise, and not level wise, Rotku. Otherwise the hard part for ECL is over with already.

[ElCadaver]

When people talk about starting at level 2 or 3, are they meaning starting with 1000, or 3000xp? Or meaning that even ECL races start at these higher levels?

If you'll start at level 3, people would still do quests the same rate as they did if they started at level one. Then they would quickly reach level 4, and we'll have the same issues all over again..."why start on level 3 when people quickly level to level 4 through quests anyhow, lets just skip that stage and start on 4th right away..."

I'm told over in Exodus they had problems with static grinding the first few levels. However, once they added a level 3 start, it more or less vanished. Seems people were simply grinding to get out of that original low level area.

Totally agree with last point... grind your PC concept past the danger lvls until the can survive a decent battle, so they can become more involved in heavy campaigns, where a DM might throw something nasty at you... or kill you by accident. Thats totally what people do, and also why we have so few monks, sorcs, wiz's and rogues. Permadeath and LVL1 start in a harsh world has bred a fighter-type/cleric centric universe. I've also lost several mages to stupid deaths. (Powder lvl3 - crit hit kobold sneak attack, Pyros lvl 1 - got pecked to death by 3 chickens)

[Rotku]

This was suppose to be honey trap question to lure Rotku into answering funny stuff! instead he decided to to answer seriously...

Your fatal flaw there is assuming that I actually read your posts.

[I-KP]

ALFA n00b here. Hello.

It's taken me a fair while to get to a level where I feel movement isn't almost assured suicide. I do not solo. I also like to think I play it canny. I have not done any statics because they seem to favour the combat orientated, even the fedex ones; plus a good number of them simply weren't IC (an important consideration in the early days of any new character especially if other characters are present). I do have to say that this period of sitting in a safe zone because a change of wind was deadly felt more about metagaming than it did about keeping it real.

The bottom line (for me): Levels 1 & 2 were participation demotivators.

---

It would be interesting to hear how the level 3 start is progressing over in Exodus. A number of folks here have genned up a char over there, how do you feel about skipping the early levels?

[rorax]

This was suppose to be honey trap question to lure Rotku into answering funny stuff! instead he decided to to answer seriously...

Your fatal flaw there is assuming that I actually read your posts.

See, eventually it worked...

[oldgrayrogue]

The bottom line (for me): Levels 1 & 2 were participation demotivators.

This, and the points made by ElCadaver and Rotku are the main reasons I support a higher level start. And i agree with Dan, that if done it should be done with XP not simply level. LA Races are already more powerful and better equipped to survive that is why they are level adjusted.

Moreover, having played two characters past level 7 on ALFA I can say that level progression past level 3 is at a very moderate pace. Maybe you could grind statics and spawns to level 5 but at that point you would be out of statics. If people start powerleveling to 5 then that is something for the DMs and the PA to look into. The point of a higher level start is to eliminate the OOC demotivation to engage in certain types of RP when a player starts a new PC. As has been eloquently stated, for most it is doldrums or it is a quick 2 to 4 day grind to level 3 anyway. I think if people started at 3 we would see the statics used for what they were intended -- an impetus to RP when no DMs are about -- instead of a quick grind to survivability.

[Veilan]

I just don't think that ALFA is the right PW for you if you don't want to have to build up character from not being a cocky confident adventurer when you start. There, I said and mean it.

It's a great experience, and those levels, that decide your path, alter where you're going with the character, see him grow the most are simply too rich to forego, even if people, at first, disagree.

It's about the hardcore roleplaying experience we strive to offer. We're not hear to game dungeon bashs where you need a certain build and starting level.

Call this arrogance, but the game got rules, and it fits ALFA's brand not to alter them simply for convenience / allowing weird powerful build as the "starting adventurer". It would alter the way characters were designed, change ability and feat choices to something more reflecting optimising than a permadeath PW.

I know it's not fun being scared of a goblin, but it's realistic and offers the chance to grow and develop your character and story. Take that chance and grow.

Of course, in the end, I realise this is a matter of taste mostly. However, this PW was created to cater to the taste reflected in a level 1 start.

[hollyfant]

We can extract the how out of the server logs, but has anyone ever compiled data as to why low level characters die exactly? The most commonly trotted out reasons seem to be "dumb luck" (which can't be helped) and "soloing" (which... can't be helped, when you happen to be alone). Both of which are "hows". But why were these characters in positions for this to happen?

If we can take away the causes of infant mortality, we won't need to fight the symptoms. Why do so many people enter the woods or caves alone, at low levels? Do we have too many low-level monsters with mad crits? How come lowbie wizards have a better survival rate than lowbie rogues?

We've (almost) all had level 1s die on us. But we don't have any solid data to base changes on.

[Blindhamsterman]

I am happy with a level 1 start, partly because as mentioned by many people, hitting second level is very easy, even without statics, I hit second in only a day or so due to being in two DM events and being logged in a lot.

I also greatly enjoy having the low level character that has a very real chance of getting killed in an encounter, be it in a group or alone - because contrary to what certain people have said, even being in a group for a low level character can be very very dangerous. Especially if the rest of the group are of a similar level. Admittedly a low level might hang out with a real high level for protection, but often it seems more like meta to do so. Especially when said people are OOC friends anyway. Understandable, but still meta.

Playing my current PC, I remember the rush I got from fighting my first gnoll as a level 2 PC, if it had hit me, with so few hp it had a reasonable chance of killing me, but thanks to having planned, and being prepared it never had the chance. IC my PC was proud of what was an accomplishment for him, OOC I was proud also becuase he'd survived a genuine challenege.

I don't agree with the auto NPCing of higher level PCs, part of D&D and by extension ALFA should be eventually hitting those levels, being able to get involved in bigger, more serious plots is a huge deal. As a level 1, reasonably speaking a PC should avoid end of the world plots, if they wish to survive, as the DMs should have such plots be dangerous for higher level PCs. Really should be as simple as that.

back to the issue of starting above 1st level... Because ECL races are allowed here with DM permission along with a good bio to explain the character. I think a level 2 start should be allowed in the same manner. It would make a lot of sense, the PC is exceptional because they are not 1st level at get go. To the people that play ECL PCs but also nay say starting above 1st level... you already are by playing an ECL PC, so really you shouldn't have an issue with someone getting to start at 2nd either, you made the choice of better ability scores, other bonuses, they made the choice of a concept where level 2 is appropiate and cool.

I don't like the idea of starting higher than 2nd level however. Even a second level start should be reserved for Multiclass concepts and/or PCs that have an exceptional Bio with a very very good reason for being more skilled.

[Regalis]

Another alternative approach: Most everyone seems to think crits are responsible. Use on the OnEnter script to apply immunity to crits to level 1s.

[Brokenbone]

Jeez you'd think ALFA had never dipped a toe into "higher than 1st" or "multiple PCs" or anything before, notwithstanding that ECL characters which by their nature, are measured as level 2 or 3 right out the gate ("Equivalent Character Level +2" means what you think it means!), have been around with hardly a bat of an eye for years.

We've gone into this turf before under trusted DM oversight, though the "trial" was really in NWN1's sunset, and taken very little advantage of, despite sponsorship by a couple of the great campaign DMs of the time, Valdimir and Electryc.

http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... 31&t=41488

In order to maximize player access to DMed events, I have received permission from Admin to proceed with a 180 day-trial policy will allow for additional "Campaign PCs" on Sembia.

In some cases, the HDM may authorize a higher starting level to join a campaign. Please understand that being allowed to create PCs at higher levels for specific campaigns grants you an advantage over PCs that have worked their way up from level one. Players should make a reasonable effort to use their campaign PC only within the campaign for which the PC was created.

Additionally, consider the following guidelines (rules) for use of these PCs:

* Please post your PC's name(s) in the Census Thread so we can track who is who. Update as you create or retire. I am due for a 2K9 Census in January.
* RP normally if engaged by PCs outside of your campaign group. Rules about muling and looting your own corpse still apply.
* If granted a higher starting level, avoid confrontational PvP situations (deadly or not) with PCs outside of your campaign group.
* Gain DM permission in advance to join plots.
* You must remain on this server with this PC.
* Additional starting wealth or gear may be granted by the HDM or EADM, and disposition of gear on death may be mediated by the HDM/EADM.
* If successful, I will petition to make this policy permanent, however, discontinuance of either the trial, or your participation in the trial, may result in forced retirement of these "special" PCs


Please post here with your available play times if you would like to take advantage of this offer. We'll try to match you up with an existing campaign or create one. Cheers!

Yeah this was half about a "spare" PC, but also about them being at a level (and gear/wealth) that fit the patron DM's tastes. Obviously you'll see some of the terms and conditions were also meant to dull any impact of things like hopping servers, horning in on other plots, just using a juiced character as a disposable CvC vector, etc.

In NWN2 terms, this would simply be something like an "Extraordinary PC" approvals thing, with any "terms and conditions" a local HDM might want to apply, like "sure your dude can start at 2nd, but stay on my server at least 6 months, and do your best not to disrupt other people's fun solely on account of your mighty 2nd level until such point too." Again, as if a 2nd level PC is really going to walk up to the toughest SOB on the server and try to kill 'em (ok, maybe a H-O barb with max STR and a greataxe could pray for a lucky crit sucker punch one-hit kill on say, a senior wizard... and a DM would see that for abuse, roll back, ban from their "program", etc.)

***

Anyhow, if there were a sponsoring DM / group of DMs (if not necessarily "all Admin"), why not pilot something? Maybe wait until after we figure out if Exodus Amn will ever be "bridged" which bypasses the level 1 vs. level 3 start business anyhow? Trust me, it's still DnD if your DM says the starting XP for their campaign is 1000 or 3000, it'd still be ALFA if PCs started with 3000xp, which might also simply to equalize the playing field with ECL characters. Human has enough XP to be 3rd, an ECL+1 has enough to be 2nd, an ECL+2 has enough to be 1st.

It's just brainstorming and presumably nothing will be done about it, but it's interesting to see exactly where "old guard" lines get drawn vs. "experimentation / recognition things are old and busted." Four year old game, dwindling new users, lot of hours poured into server content that'll get sparser and sparser use. Shame we didn't get more of a run with that program in Sembia, wish I'd played more in the Bloodstone NWN1 thing (non-ALFA) that Chamu, Electryc, Valdimir, Gregg1974 and others were involved in afterward for some of the NWN1 die hards to keep playing (level 3 start was a given).

[Brokenbone]

Another alternative approach: Most everyone seems to think crits are responsible. Use on the OnEnter script to apply immunity to crits to level 1s.

LOL, that's actually pretty elegant as an alternative to "mulligans", whether applied to just level 1, or even *gasp* level 2.

Tooling mobs in NWN1, some builders tried to be careful of not letting chump critters have things like axes or shortbows, not over concern of loot drops, but being wary of weapons with things like x3 crits. Means you'd maybe try a club (x2) or sling (x2) instead. Don't know if the same thinking goes into current building, but there you have it.

[oldgrayrogue]

I just don't think that ALFA is the right PW for you if you don't want to have to build up character from not being a cocky confident adventurer when you start. There, I said and mean it.

It's a great experience, and those levels, that decide your path, alter where you're going with the character, see him grow the most are simply too rich to forego, even if people, at first, disagree.

It's about the hardcore roleplaying experience we strive to offer. We're not hear to game dungeon bashs where you need a certain build and starting level.

Call this arrogance, but the game got rules, and it fits ALFA's brand not to alter them simply for convenience / allowing weird powerful build as the "starting adventurer". It would alter the way characters were designed, change ability and feat choices to something more reflecting optimising than a permadeath PW.

I know it's not fun being scared of a goblin, but it's realistic and offers the chance to grow and develop your character and story. Take that chance and grow.

Of course, in the end, I realise this is a matter of taste mostly. However, this PW was created to cater to the taste reflected in a level 1 start.

I think at worst it is arrogance Veilan, and ignores reality on several levels. What exactly is "hardcore" about grinding statics or playing round the clock to get to level 3 in a few days? What is the great RP experience derived from having to decide to a) play things IC and probably lose a cool concept on your *gasp* first time out of town alone or b) OOC alter your PC's IG actions so he can "level up" and survive? Is it a " weird powerbuild" to multiclass at level 2? If so why don't we ban those builds now? Why are you suddenly cast as a "dungeon basher" and a "powergamer" who should consider whether this is the place for you if you even suggest a discussion about changing a rule that quite a few ALFAns seem to think adds little to the experience and actually detracts from it? The sky will not fall on ALFA if PCs start play at a level that it seems, in reality, most get to in a few days from PC creation anyway. Unless of course you play the PW as intended, and don't grind through the beginning levels, and don't let OOC concerns of character survival affect your roleplay. Then maybe you just end up feeling bored and go check out Exodus. Or maybe you hang on to that high level PC for dear life. There I said it.

[Veilan]

What exactly is "hardcore" about grinding statics or playing round the clock to get to level 3 in a few days? What is the great RP experience derived from having to decide to a) play things IC and probably lose a cool concept on your *gasp* first time out of town alone or b) OOC alter your PC's IG actions so he can "level up" and survive?

If that's your way of coping with it, it sure wasn't mine.

The part how you would "play things IC and lose a cool concept" points to what is fundamentally wrong. If you're level 1, you should be well aware you're not a battle-hardened veteran or an elven treasure-seeking-bard who's got the world-wisened ways of dozens of successful dungeon crawls behind him. If you want to play a suicidal character oblivious to the fact that he has no experience and no business fighting goblins alone, then that's your call. I need not mention that such a character best has a wisdom score of 8 or below. Personally, my ALFA characters took quite a while, and some levels, to develop confidence - confidence being a byproduct of ability, ability being the main product of experience, experience not being 0xp - level 1.

I can understand the urge to hop right into adventuring and wanting to play a "hero" rather than a "character", but I don't believe ALFA is the best place to sate that appetite. ALFAn heroes have meaning precisely because they didn't start as quasi-heroes, but developed and grew from being a scared Parn and Eto hardly able to cope with a couple of goblins to a knight of the realms. I don't even deny being arrogant in that attitude, because I do frown upon the instant-gratification mentality and I did enjoy the character development, roleplaying and formative phase of level 1-3.

Once again, in the end, it's a matter of taste, hence why we're not resigned to playing in one PW or project only. The ALFA soup, however, is one where you should take your armour off for swimming and sleeping, start level 1, and act IC at all times.