Policing and PC Statistics

Ideas and suggestions for game mechanics and rules.
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zicada
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Re: Policing and PC Statistics

Post by zicada »

Swift wrote:Mikalya was a rocking PA, we need to bring her back :D
I disagree, don't let anyone who'se a lawyer anywhere near any position in ALFA. Been cleaning up the massive gameB element for years...

Bringing her back, for sure, excellent player. Bringing a lawyer back to an admin position ? no thanks.

On to the issue posted by the OP.
Is there an easy way to access statistics for each PC to examine their rate of leveling, source of XP earned, wealth etc., without being logged onto the DM client?
YES
Can it be done without identifying the PC and player of the PC? I am pretty sure the former can be done, not sure about the latter.
So basically you want the names X'd out ? That's certainly possible. Rather silly in my personal opinion, but possible, yes.

We could possibly open up the log parser to more people if required, we log everything, and Roekemoes did a stellar job creating the log parser frontend. Obviously we don't want a bunch of people who are actually playing to be able to see EVERYTHING about EVERYONE, so some thought would have to go into that, but as I'm sure has been said plenty of times in this thread without bothering to read every post, we do log everything. Could we remove names ? yeah. Would that mean the data doesn't tell you whose doing what ? not so sure. Does it matter if a few people helping out with this knows which PCs theyre watching ? NO! I dont think so at all. Then again I never did understand all the anti-cheating rules stuff to begin with. Who in their right mind who works in a decent position in Alfa and thus understands what Alfa is about would use that data to advance their own PC , honestly ??
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Re: Policing and PC Statistics

Post by johnlewismcleod »

Regalis wrote:OGR's proposal was very straightforward. I'm surprised it seems to have confused most of the people in this thread.

In another thread, a DM said they were overburdened enough without needing to try to police standards.

OGR has proposed shifting or sharing that responsibility to/with other staff members: ALFA Representatives. This would, presumably, reduce the burden on the DMs giving them more time to DM.

It has been suggested this proposal be tabled until after the merger and PA election.

We can leave it at that... or people can keep responding to posts that were misinterpretations of what was proposed. :)
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Re: Policing and PC Statistics

Post by oldgrayrogue »

zicada wrote:Who in their right mind who works in a decent position in Alfa and thus understands what Alfa is about would use that data to advance their own PC , honestly ??
Frankly, if everyone felt this way I would end the discussion right here. We need to trust members of staff to do the jobs they volunteered for without abusing that trust, be they DMs, ARs whatever.

And Sands, you are correct, more DMs are needed, but they have been hard to come by. Absent that I think it makes sense to explore alternatives that free up DMs to build, run events etc... Having tried it in ALFA I know that the fun parts of DMing in and of themselves take tons of time, effort and commitment. If other volunteers can be found to handle some of the more tedious aspects, maybe more people will want to DM =)
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Re: Policing and PC Statistics

Post by CloudDancing »

In regards to rewards and policing:

DMs build and live DM for one purpose only, to share their content with PCs in a creative commons. When it becomes a situation of ego and self-aggrandizement, we run into trouble. Even if that is'nt their intent, in the end it comes down to this is an ALTRUISTIC effort. When one gives so freely there are two things that will happen:

1. Expect you will be required to constantly collaborate and your best work will happen because of team efforts.
2. Do not expect concrete rewards. Your reward is the sublime enjoyment of sharing content with a diverse and unpredictable group of deeply immersed RP characters.

The suggestion that we are some how using the creative commons to "advance" ourselves as DMs is somewhat ridiculous. We can't advance in this situation and as we all know from high level PCs, there is no wining in Alfa. In the end the name of our game is survival. Fame or infamy come from player characters choices and their ability to roleplay, not anything DMs personally do.

Even more so, DMs are trapped on the opposite server. We can't travel with friends as the situation naturally dictates. We are always struggling with this IC "stuckness" tha defies natural fluid RP. If anything DMs are underloved as PCs and expected to do mental acrobatics as roleplayers DUE to the two server system for example, I have been forced to RP with PCs I basically raised from level 1 as a DM.

Even more so, our positions are dependant on our constant respect for the players who are the reason we build and DM, and also making an effort to make sure the rules are followed because we care about the other players, not ourselves. But as DMs our options are constrained by one simple fact; this is creative commons, no one is paid, and we all have real lives, families, and day jobs. We also are human and prone to bad days and frustrations the same as anyone.

Yet enforcing the rules is a contant struggle. Case in point, say I find a player cheating. I document the hard data and proof of that cheating becase that is the logical course of action. I don't expect my HDM to take my opinion, I give him proof.

Then I submidt it my HDM to review and I check in with the other DMs. And I dry my hands of the whole situation. If I catch the player after that point, I will whisper to them, "I noticed you arent spending any time Rping with others and have been wedged in this cave desperatly trying to level up on 1 XP golbins, we need to talk." I trust my HDM will take care or it and be fair.

On the other hand, there is a player dispute, this is referred to the Admin and AR. You know what this means to ME personally? Any time someone brings issue with another player that requires investigations from the Admin or an AR, I personally loose another two or three weeks where TSM's new content will not get reviewed or uploaded to the server.

And despite paranoia of all this ramping "leveling and cheating" over the last six months I have been involved, no serious "cheating" has occured on TSM. Three players were personally asked to slow down their leveling. One was punished and subsequently left. Four of those players that left and who had harassed me as a DM, were proven they had purposely joined Alfa to cause trouble and screw around from SomethingAwful. I just happened to be the lucky one to bear the brunt of that fiasco. Three players were singled out for roleplaying lessons which I provided them player mentors to do so as well as my own advice as a DM.

But to be blunt, players need to mind their own business and take care of their own roleplaying except for the most obvious events happening during un-dmed time, such as a player encouraging you to use an exploit. Write a nicely worded PM with anecdotal data and logged proof to the DMS or the Admin. DMs are aware of the situations occuring. We aren't asleep at the wheel here.
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Re: Policing and PC Statistics

Post by oldgrayrogue »

Honestly, I think players talking with players about RP, and what is appropriate or not in terms of the rules and style -- as long as it does not destroy immersion IG -- is very worthwhile and from my perspective almost to be expected from someone you play a game with. Thinking back to my PnP days, my groups always hhad discussions about the rules, RPing etc at the table, it made us all better players. I also remember when I first logged onto a NWN persistent world and had no idea what I was doing. Helpful hints from other players (most of whom became great friends and RP partners) helped me to learn the ropes and what was acceptable or not acceptable. I remember one friend telling be to slow down and pause between lines of chat to give her a chance to think about a response and type it so we could have a good give and take. Sage advice that improved my RP dramatically. I also remember another who called me out on a static quest dungeon crawl because when we got to the end of the quest and the chest with the reward in it was empty I suggested we wait for the reward to respawn. He politely explained to me that that would be "camping" the chest, and what we should do is just RP it being empty. I was mortified but at the same time thankful for the advice. Finally, most who have RPd with me know that at the close of a session I will often "check in" with the other player(s) in tells usually to (1) thank them for the RP and (2) see if there are any OOC issues we need to discuss or perhaps comment on something that occurred that caused an issue for me. I usually do this when the RP is heated or confrontational because well, its simple good manners. I have done the same with DMs and when I was a DM. This sort of thing has always been well received, and mind you I am always careful never to criticize another's RP or put them on the defensive because that is just not productive and is mean. Certainly if there is some blatant cheating or meta going on I will call for a "time out" and confront a player about it directly before we continue.

My point is that all of us, players and DMs are sitting around this "virtual table" playing a game together. That's essentially what it is, a board game that through the magic of technology I can play with a guy in australia and a gal in Washington. We should talk about the game, and share our views, take and give advice as it will likely improve the experience for all of us. Imagine playing on a sports team and never talking to your teammates or your coach about strategy, the rules or technique. Anyway, my point is this is a collaborative effort that should be ruled by common courtesy and common sense. Yes, policing is necessary, and we can debate who best to do it, but in my view the relationship between all of us as a community should be governed by these fairly simple principles.
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Re: Policing and PC Statistics

Post by Brokenbone »

OGR made a good post.

Playing "together" requires communication.

However, playing "alone" is where some portion of the distrust and/or policing concerns come up.

I think the very old ALFA handbook or rulebook or whatever had some kind of situation it described of part time roleplayer, part time powergamer, just as an example that someone could be marvelous in a weekly group, but between sessions, there you find them all alone grinding some kind of content, or worse, exploiting some form of bug or other (keep opening a certain cupboard every reset to get a jewel... until one day the farmer's cupboard has a strong electrical trap on it, passive-aggressive DM enforcement at its worst).
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Re: Policing and PC Statistics

Post by johnlewismcleod »

Brokenbone wrote:...(keep opening a certain cupboard every reset to get a jewel... until one day the farmer's cupboard has a strong electrical trap on it, passive-aggressive DM enforcement at its worst).
LOL...I must be passive aggressive, then :lol:

When I see farming run a muck, it is a good solution IMO to alter the static content that the player(s) have been abusing.

It only makes sense to me that if a player(s) are assuming from repetitive harvest that they "know" a given area contains x,y,z and if they run through doing a,b,c that they are "assured" a certain result...changing a variable or two is an inspired means to remind them our world is alive and not static IMO.

I'll grant you that a strong electrical trap seems a bit extreme, but if a certain NPC is being robbed repetitively it only seems natural that he would spend some money and set a trap.

You can call that what you will, but I'll call it "keeping our world realistic and alive" 8)

Having said that, I will re-iterate my support for OGR's idea. Players see what other players are up to when DM's aren't on server and I think a gentler, player to player counseling could probably prevent the need for a DM to have to "play the heavy" in most instances.

It is fairly clear, I think, that we have seen from previous posts in this thread that while we DM's don't want to shirk our responsibilities as rules enforcers, it is clearly stressful, time consuming, and takes away from our gametime.

I, like OGR, had to learn over time to love RP and did so with the help of "the village". Dirsa and hollyfant (just two of many), remember my early days as a PW newb and helped me immensely via friendly counsel and example...and I'm still learning and growing today...eight years later (or is it ten? :chin: ).

If our rules prevent our excellent, well accomplished players from helping new players adjust...then the rules should be modified IMO.
Last edited by johnlewismcleod on Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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[Wynna] Chula Lysander: [Talk] *Shakes head* I've been in worse situations. He was just....unjoyful! *stomps foot*


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Re: Policing and PC Statistics

Post by Veilan »

I think the idea of the "passive-aggressive" DM punishing a farmer is very, very bad. Not because I pity the farmer...

...but because by throwing DM time and attention at the problem, you're actually rewarding the farmer, while punishing the good apples. Squeaky-wheel-gets-the-grease rule and all.

People like that don't need to be dealt with in game or in an IC fashion. Just take the example of the power-farming builds on one server for a while... DM response was to up the monster's prowess. Player response was to roll up even tougher chars and farm even better gear... gaining more rewards from the beefed-up monsters in the process.

An idea like that might work in a 4 player 1 DM setting (where such a problem is not very likely to occur in the first place), but please, don't suggest to reward people with DM attention for being jackasses.
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Re: Policing and PC Statistics

Post by johnlewismcleod »

A valid point, Veilan...thanks.

The crux is this, however, that any action taken by DM's in policing is time-consuming whether it be counseling, and then scouring the logs to see if the player heeded the advice, or by taking a "passive-aggressive" or "aggressive-aggressive" approach. I'm sure you know that while "it's all there" in the logs, truth and perspective can easily be lost in the analysis.

I see no good reason to prevent players willing and able to help from doing so...they are IG and can see what's going on better than any number of snippets gleaned from pages of sequential data.

Certainly it's true we're all equals here. Whatever our current function whether we are DM, player, or AR: we are all essential (and expendable) parts of our community.

I don't see that principal violated by allowing AR's to lighten the burden of DM's if they are willing to help.
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[Wynna] Chula Lysander: [Talk] *Shakes head* I've been in worse situations. He was just....unjoyful! *stomps foot*


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Re: Policing and PC Statistics

Post by oldgrayrogue »

To the extent farming is a big concern (and frankly with most PCs in ALFA at or below average wealth standards AFAIK I really don't think it is a problem) there are some fairly simple ways to address that script wise. Sandermann's DPSS system makes repetitive spawn farming virtually impossible and adds a heavy dose of dynamic realism to the game -- a win-win. Tweaking statics so that say, only 2 can be accomplished within a certain time period addresses static loading as well. But these are really peripheral issues. What I am proposing is really a more holistic approach, if you will, to policing and enforcement. One where players and Staff (be they DMs, ARs or someone else) through communicationj, monitoring and enforcement of rules when necessary try to help everyone on the server basically get on the same page as to the standards prevalent in the community. We should try to do so in a way that caters to everyone's tastes in terms of RP. Some people like to go "adventuring" on dungeon crawls and exploration through the wilds. Others like purely "fireside" or social RP. Neither is superior or more desirable from a global perspective. What we should promote is play that is "story based" rather than play motivated by purely OOC concerns to gain XP and wealth, and police players to deter, and when necessary sanction the latter.

I think ARs may be well suited to this task. But they will need the cooperation of DMs and other players if they are to do so. And we need to be open minded about the way players choose to spend their play time as well, and not impose our particular preferences as to the type of RP we like when judging whether the RP or someone else adheres to standards or not. Its fairly simple to me. Most of us have been RPing long enough to know cheating or metagaming when we see it. Usually it is the more obvious eamples that merit sanction, while the gray areas can usually be resolved with a polite conversation that usually ends with a smile on both sides.
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Re: Policing and PC Statistics

Post by CloudDancing »

. Helpful hints from other players (most of whom became great friends and RP partners) helped me to learn the ropes and what was acceptable or not acceptable. I remember one friend telling be to slow down and pause between lines of chat to give her a chance to think about a response and type it so we could have a good give and take. Sage advice that improved my RP dramatically. I also remember another who called me out on a static quest dungeon crawl because when we got to the end of the quest and the chest with the reward in it was empty I suggested we wait for the reward to respawn. He politely explained to me that that would be "camping" the chest, and what we should do is just RP it being empty. I was mortified but at the same time thankful for the advice. Finally, most who have RPd with me know that at the close of a session I will often "check in" with the other player(s) in tells usually to (1) thank them for the RP and (2) see if there are any OOC issues we need to discuss or perhaps comment on something that occurred that caused an issue for me. I usually do this when the RP is heated or confrontational because well, its simple good manners. I have done the same with DMs and when I was a DM.
I think ideally this is how I wish every player would behave and one of the reasons why I like to DM Corio/OGR. Respectful, polite, follows the DM instructions, is able to play out authentic negative emotions and reactions of Corio, and his values. And Corio persists in character, even when groups of people turn their backs on him and his plans.

Oddly enough his type of approach to gameplay makes me feel as a DM I can trust him. And this is the ideal relationship between a DM and a player. Knowing that they will go the distance for me and show me something new from their character each time, knowing they will comply with the DMs instructions with little argument, and knowing they will respond to the whole experience as a deeply immersed reality.

I wish that this type of trust was more implicitly known. You basically say by logging in, manifesting your creation into Faerun, "this is my character's world, these DMs are Fate, Consequence, and Faith, and anything they do we will treat as thus."

And I appreciate others communicating that idea to other players, in a respectful manner as long as your paitence can last and then calling for help, which we do and will provide.
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Re: Policing and PC Statistics

Post by Brokenbone »

Reading a couple of the posts above, if a server team wanted to outsource its "counselling" work, it's possible you'd be able to find someone to do it. I.e., if you don't want to break off DMing, or don't want to be confrontational or whatever... list your detailed grievance to have, I don't know, a volunteer AR take to the party of concern and present the concern and get their side of the story. Basically with the closing remark of "I'll take your explanation to the concerned team and they'll either want to have more counselling or have some other decision", worst case though at least the individual is on warning that all is not well, or that their actions are capable of looking "off" to a team (so be on better behavior).
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Re: Policing and PC Statistics

Post by johnlewismcleod »

Brokenbone wrote:... if a server team wanted to outsource its "counselling" work, it's possible you'd be able to find someone to do it. I.e., if you don't want to break off DMing, or don't want to be confrontational or whatever... list your detailed grievance to have, I don't know, a volunteer AR take to the party of concern and ...
With all due respect, BB, I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. It's not that we DM's want to "sluff off" unpleasant aspects or responsibilities of our portfolio to someone else as much as it is a DM gametime consideration.

Admittedly I don't particularly enjoy enforcement bits, but I'm perfectly capable and willing to traverse the circuitous path from gentle counsel to "smack down" when it is necessary to do so. The point I'm trying to make is that the process of monitoring, counseling, referral to HDM/AR, etc takes heaps of time and effort AND has the potential to sour the relationship between a DM and the player(s).
"...list your detailed grievance and... (turn it over to)...a volunteer AR..."
assumes that the DM has scoured to logs and compiled a grievance to begin with. I see no time savings here and this only seems to add the additional bit of time/effort in adding another mediator to the process to send PM's (or IRC meetings) back and forth to.

What I hope might happen is that AR's can have access to the parser and help new or returning players adjust without needing a DM involved at all, and only bring in a DM when necessary.

Let's face it: it is a big adjustment coming to ALFA from nearly any other PW or from the NWN campaign and even long time players can get into bad habits on occassion. I really think the AR's could help players make the right choices in the vast majority of cases without a DM having to muck with it at all if we give them the tools and support they need to do it.

Maybe it's a bad idea...I leave that to our community to decide...but that is the crux of the debate from my point of view.
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[Wynna] Chula Lysander: [Talk] *Shakes head* I've been in worse situations. He was just....unjoyful! *stomps foot*


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