Paladin Class Feature to Replace Paladin Mounts

[AcadiusLost]

Some of the more uncommon paladins may also have problems- Sunites and Mystrans jump to mind right off. Sure there are a few more in the strange/exotic category. Again though, it's something you can plan ahead for if you know it's coming.

[Veilan]

Currently, paladins in ALFA have a 1 per paladin level, instead of 1/2, caster level as a compensation for the lost class features. This prolongs the duration of their buffs and enhances the healing they got - nothing to compete with a cleric, but it bolsters a key forte in a PW format.

Some of the variant paladins might certainly be nice to have, but don't seem to offer a compelling effort to gain ratio.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

I think the effort to gain ratio is well worth it. The caster level increase is next to useless. The extra seconds/minutes on two or three spells is not worth the loss of a class feature. Bull's Strength, maybe Death Ward and Holy Sword (that's at level 15) might benefit from it. But the reason paladins have half caster level is because their spells don't depend on it and don't gain a significant bonus from having a lengthened time. In fact, one of the best paladin spells, Divine Favor, is just a flat one minute buff.

[Munmun]

Currently, paladins in ALFA have a 1 per paladin level, instead of 1/2, caster level as a compensation for the lost class features. This prolongs the duration of their buffs and enhances the healing they got - nothing to compete with a cleric, but it bolsters a key forte in a PW format.

Some of the variant paladins might certainly be nice to have, but don't seem to offer a compelling effort to gain ratio.

The caster level increase doesn't even begin to make up for the loss of a mount/ally. The spells paladins get have little to no reliance on their caster level.

As for effort, there is none required to implement this beyond the effort already being put forward to do custom armor. It could all be done through a DM who could roleplay out a minor plot for the paladin to gain their weapon.

[Brokenbone]

Caster level could get cut back to 1/2, if that's a suggested tradeoff. It was the cause of some controversy with the suspended NWN1 3.01 hak (ie a new package of CL related scripts), but the work, while not used, is still possibly portable to NWN2.

At least in NWN2, there aren't a number of "long established spellcasting paladins" who would all of a sudden notice their durations and cure strengths going out the window.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

That is the suggested idea, yes. Caster Level reverted to pen and paper style paladin, and the class feature added to substitute for the loss of the paladin mount.

[Creslyn]

CL is already 1/2 class level for rangers/paladins in nwn2.

[Munmun]

CL is already 1/2 class level for rangers/paladins in nwn2.

In ALFA there is full caster level to make up for the paladin mount. Unfortunately it doesn't really make up for it at all.

[AcadiusLost]

ALFA has made no caster level changes to NWN2, so I assume Munmun is referring to NWN1 with regard to what's already in place.

For NWN1, presumably DMs could just grant a free Warhorse and call it their paladin mount for now?

[Munmun]

ALFA has made no caster level changes to NWN2, so I assume Munmun is referring to NWN1 with regard to what's already in place.

For NWN1, presumably DMs could just grant a free Warhorse and call it their paladin mount for now?

Weird. Everyone has told me that ALFA NWN2 made that change as well.

So how about implementing this class feature then? No scripts are involved, it is all DM run and provides a great hook for a plot.

[Brokenbone]

NWN1 Paladin Warhorses are apparently in the works for the (now 8 months waiting?) 1.69 patch.

I was ignorant of the NWN2 vanilla CL progression for Paladins as well.

[Mayhem]

Random thought:

Basics of a Paladin: Fighter whose prowess is enhanced by the power of his god.

Current ability: Turn undead. I may be wrong, but most people tell me this abilty is barely worthwhile - anything you could turn reliably could be smacked-down.

Proposal. In liu of a mount, give paladins, for free, one (or more) of the feats that let you change a turning attempt into something more immediately useful (can't recall the feats atm but I'm reasonably sure they are included in NWN2)

[Avaz]

Mayhem: Divine Might, Divine Shield, etc.?

[Brokenbone]

Since any potential paladin power is a power that can be lost by "falling", I wonder if ALFA endorses any particular definition of a "fall." Some folks might just await some non LG act, or alignment drift until hitting NG or LN.

Others might actually enforce paladin code, whether the sample one found in the SRD class description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/palad ... eofconduct), the slightly longer paladin code deeper in an "honor" section of the SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campa ... ladinscode, or one possibly agreed to between player and DMs as may relate to a particular PC's interpretation of the code (example, a Daggerdale PC Paladin of Nobanion, whose bio involved a lot of wemics in the desert, had a twelve point code agreed to with the DMs, see "The Twelve Lessons" @ http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... sc&start=0 )

I only raise this because if there's the equivalent of a multi-thousand GP weapon being dropped, potentially, on a certain type of PC, does there need to be any clear agreement (perhaps in the Admin/DM forum) on Pally code requirements? One of the key ones which can be really rough in a small PW crowd is "partying with known/suspected to be evil" associates... I am not sure if DMs sometimes just look the other way on that point, or if there's ignorance, or benefit of the doubt that the paladin might not know that the three notorious murderers they just teamed up with are actually "evil." The guy whose fiction I linked above, he watched suspicious PCs like a hawk, something like "gaze upon them seven times before making up your mind" allowed for a little wiggle room, but that paladin eventually died in a duel when he ICly decided "this fighter twice my level, is definitely a force of evil in the region." Died a paladin at least.

Anyhow, yeah, if talking about adding a paladin ability, maybe DMs being clear on the counterbalance (i.e., how you lose it), will have to be pretty firmly established. "Sorry you partied with an evil guy" or "that not offering quarter to the orc who threw down his weapon was dishonorable" or whatever. Not something meant to snake the player, but paladin business is tough to conduct within their many restrictions... either published ones, or ones that DMs agree to and document with creative players (i.e., equivalent, or even more strict codes seeming to make good IC sense for a particular religious dogma or cultural background).

[SwordSaintMusashi]

A paladin loses all their powers (which would include a celestial forged weapon as a class ability) if they break their code.

The code in the Player's Handbook is just the basic round-all example. Every deity in Faerun that offers a place for paladins has slightly altered codes that a paladin must follow.

In addition, in the Book of Exalted Deeds, they expanded on the "not working with evil characters" part of the code to include situations where its permitable, such as but not limited to a paladin working to redeem an evil character to the side of good.

The "paladin code" has been argued over again and again by DM to DM, setting to setting a hundred times, because most people are NOT paladins in their real life mindset (I know I'm not). You just have to use good judgement and make sure a paladin isn't being blatantly unpaladinlike.

Examples I keep in mind are Merciful, Honorable, Law-abiding (unless said laws are evil by their nature), and intolerant of evil acts being performed - this last one is important, because in most cases a paladin can't just walk up to an evil person and strike them down simply for being evil, a mistake that MANY paladins make. (Things like demons and devils and non-humans are exempt from this, though every situation can be different.)

In anycase, this whole paladin code discussion should probably be brought up in a more organized fashion in its own thread, if its something that really needs exploring.