Yes, this again

[Rick7475]

"Here we go again, for the hundreth time,
handgrenade pins in every line .."

Bleed it Out,
Linkin' Park.


I can respond in more detail next week, after the weekend, but folks, why don't we just leave the system that comes with NWN2 in place. Its easy (meaning no scripting or changes required) and it suitably slows LA race advancement. Yes, I know, there are concerns about the players who have to spend all that time at level one, but as the spokeswoman for that group (and someone who will have to do it) I would rather do that than water down the races. So, lets keep it really simple and use the out-of-the-box system. Thanks.

To be honest, we don't even have a live server yet, and our builders and scriptors are swamped. If someone wants to step up and build something vastly superior to what we have with NWN2, by all means, with approval from the Admin and community, it can be yours.

But for simplicity to get something up and running, I agree 100% with Mikayla.

[Inaubryn]

You're right... the Obsidian system isn't unfair as it was designed for a single-player game with way different standards for doling out xp. ALFA w/ perma-death is an entirely different animal. For those of you who have/had a PC that is 4th level or higher, how long did it take you to get to that point?

Were you ever in a combat situation (static, DM'd, CvC) at any point from level 1 to level 4? Did you take anymore than 10 points of damage at any give time? Were you ever knocked to bleeding and unconscious?

If you answered yes to any of those questions imagine how many RL weeks and months it took you to make level 4. Now, imagine spending that entire time at level 1 and going through the above scenarios. Now answer this. And, this is for posterity, so be honest.

How many of your PCs would be alive now or would've made it past level 1?

[AcadiusLost]

You're right... the Obsidian system isn't unfair as it was designed for a single-player game with way different standards for doling out xp.

Just a clarification- the "Obsidian" system is actually the default PnP 3.5E rules- they just bump your PC up to equivalent of 3rd or so in the first few minutes of the original campaign to make sure the "long first level" doesn't inconvenience the single-player customers, basically it's implementing the "starting at higher level" option from PnP (using the early XP points as a "tutorial" for the game- you even have the option to skip that part :p).

One can still argue that the PnP system doesn't work well transplanted into a slow-advancement multiplayer online PW, but the "default" handling isn't at all a concession to singleplayer PG campaign play.

[Inaubryn]

I can almost agree with that. They don't bump you up to third. They give out a blanket 3000xp, which bumps non-ecl races up to third. So, it's not exactly the 3.5 PnP rules. But, it's close and I get your point.


Let me add this, I'm also a member of another PW. We have a live server up and running for NWN2 there and people are playing. So, when I propose this stuff, I'm not talkin' outta my arse. It's because I've seen much of it in practice. Right now, ALFA only has theories and speculation to deal with, where as others have real world data. I've seen planetouched in action as well as other ECL races. And, right now the surface covers a region that isn't friendly to elves, or wizards, let alone the ECL races. Messages on how these races will be perceived and treated are posted on the boards, in the Lore section, the FAQ, etc. People still choose to play them and the DMs don't have an issue with that.

But... this PW has the default ECL system in place. Only a few players have applied for heavy ECL races e.g., drow. Without special DM attention to monitor and make sure they get along and at least have some shot at survival, they have no shot. It's almost too hard. Seriously.
So, let's not overlook the experience another PW already has dealing with these facets of the game, and try and base our decisions on real world findings as opposed to speculation and what not.


Edit: We can do this w/o scripting. As ECL races are few and far between compared to normal races, we can simply have DMs hit new players with the 3k xp once they join a server. Wave of the wand and done. No, automation needed. Any DM would be able to do this on any server at any time.

[Veilan]

I think we have about 5 years of experience concerning LA races in ALFA 1?

[indio]

But we need someone to save us from ourselves, Alara, someone with the knowledge of a *better* PW.

I thought I heard just a few days ago someone being amazed about how ALFA dredged up dead horses time and again, and that they were going to do a study about it.

I'm with AL on this matter, although Mikayla's input is instructive. If we were going to listen to anyone on this matter, for my money it would be her.

[Inaubryn]

Alara, considering the xp system was nothing like it is in NWN2, survivabilty, over those five years, was an equal issue for all PC races.

Indio, this is not a dead horse. ALFA has no official system in place for ECL or crafting for that matter. No one said anything about a better PW. However, a PW with a live server for NWN2 was mentioned and that they currently have more experience than ALFA in that matter. And, seeing how we haven't gotten our servers up yet, there's nothing wrong with saying someone has more experience than us at the moment. Over the years, we've drawn from many projects that have more experience than we did on any given subject, as have other people from us. The PW I speak of is Exodus and the ALFA ACR is used to run that world. So, Exodus has drawn on the years of ALFA experience to make that world work.

And, while Mikayla is an excellent source of drow knowledge there are others who are as well. Like Vendrin. But, this isn't about the knowledge of the drow, or underdark or saving anything from anything. This is about not discouraging people from playing these races because they can never make level 2 or higher. It's no fun when your PCs keep dyin' and dyin' and dyin'. Ask Moto X, I think his luck with PCs is what the phrase, "Welcome to ALFA and good luck on your second character," is based on.

[Veilan]

Inny, that's why we came up with all those other, also fair, systems and suggested them. Not because we are "patronizing" as Mik claims, but because it's our charge to try to accomodate as best as possible the different sentiments.

Basically, we have to see the system is fair compared to the rest of the players. No matter whether not all of us agree everything must be on an equal footing, or whether someone may believe it's not even worth trying, a level playing field and no extrawursts for anyone is what we need to span our system of independent server and player interests together into one community.
Now, which of those sub-systems gets implemented imho should be decided by those who plan to play Drow, as apparently, it's a closed society. Of course in theory each player could, but yes, those who plan to be part of the UD project for ALFA 2 are the most concerned.

There's no problem here, the only problem is that, in fact, you and Mikayla don't agree. This is not racism or anti-Drow or whatever polemical terms may be bandied about by the fervant and emotional adherents of the player race, this is a very internal affair, imho. We laid out time and time again which systems are fair - and that is not going to be disproven by "real world" experience, because in fact it is based on real observations and also logics and an understanding of PnP rules. Which one to settle on is something where I think the community as a whole is very open-eared to listening to your input (you = the drow community, since we have nothing else on the UD / LA front). Of course, upping the overall starting level is a more major thing.

Considering Drow start at the equivalent of a level 3 PC, no matter how you slice and dice it, you're not going to get away without some pain somewhere to make up for that. Where that pain is, I don't really care too much. Obviously I like the lesser races option, because it creates no low-level pain, no wealth considerations, and is very consistent roleplay and flavour wise. The Obsidan system (allowing, in the case of Drow, level 3 characters to start with level 1 ones, but only letting them advance to 4 once the others hit 2) is apparently fair as well, but has a tremendous pain on the low levels, that no doubt can be alleviated by careful playing and staying in your supportive environment with trusted DMs, but still bites. The Savage Species (where you can purchase racial powers with level ups / feats etc.) system I personally find un-immersive and gamey. Upping the overall starting level, while being the most non-problematic and fair system, apparently is a much bigger issue, and while it solves the LA problem best, I'm personally not in favour of starting higher than 1.

Now, we could try mixing and matching and spreading the hit around, but you're not going to get the egg-laying wool-milk-pig, and it seems complicated, arbitrary, and a lot of work, bickering, and re-emerging dead horses for what, basically, is that you and Mikayla disagree .

So everyone cool their jets, I suggest you guys sit together, and we can see what we come up with. I like the idea of another ventrilo chat, I'm rather certain there would be a lot less insult-slinging than in irc.

Again, I see your argument of "omg the level 1 pain". That can only determine which fair system to choose though - not to say it's okay if it's unfair for the rest.

[AcadiusLost]

I'm somewhat familiar with the PW I believe Inaubryn is referring to- the setting is one that really doesn't have much accomodation for LA races- they would be especially rare in the region, and are fairly heavily discouraged from a storytelling perspective. While the "long 1st level" syndrome may also contribute to their scarcity there, to me the primary disincentive is an RP one- the area just isn't well suited to the LA races, so players could expect to be run out of the main areas or CvC'd as a matter of course.

That was my take on it, anyway- I'm not privy to the internal workings there. If/when they have an area represented that better supports LA races (Calimshan for genesai, for example), I expect they'll be much more common.

[indio]

Lv 1 survivabilty is entirely a case to be handled by module designers, FWIW.

One of the majr problems for the Underdark servers has been the incredible difficulty getting a server up and running. What this presumably has meant, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that all effort has been bent towards creating the module, fixing problems and other draining tasks, and not directed at all towards creating a quest matrix for PCs.

If you want Lv1 survivability that conforms to ALFA standards, get someone to start writing quests now. Sounds like you need 6000xp, so that would be about 100 50xp quests, and the rest would be auto-xp fr RP.

Throw a DM adventure into the mix and a player might only need to do 50 of those quests.

I'd make quests that allowed players to learn about aspects of the culture, the server, the religions, organisations and their own PCs. So have your cliched delivery quests, but make the item being delivered worth delivering. We've got a quests system in the works for you to use if you like.

This is how it works, especially when you don't have active DMs, in my experience. You just need one person who does the work on the backend of the server, creating a thick fabric of quests for players to gain their first level. All the rest of the rules-lawyering doesn't make a difference and just creates animosity. Moreover, it wastes time someone might be spending making quests.

I think in a lot of instances, topcs like this simply serve the excuse of people gettng out of actually doing work. And that's not a personal slight against you, Inaubryn. It's just the nature of some people's existence. They'd rather talk about it than do it.

[Mulu]

"Please take this human head to the duergar encampment outside the city gates. Watch out for spiderlings. Ask for Rook."

[Mikayla]

This is not about Inny and I disagreeing, despite Alara's assertions - I would be happy with Inny's system. More happy with it than I would the original NWN out-of-the-box system. I am just realistic enough to know that Inny's proposal is going to piss off other people, like, well, Alara. So I am willing to take a harder road. But do not try to cast this in the light of Mik vs. Inny, cause it ain't that way. I would happily do Inny's system. Its Alara v. Inny here, if anything. I am just suggesting a middle-road.

Alara:

Considering Drow start at the equivalent of a level 3 PC, no matter how you slice and dice it, you're not going to get away without some pain somewhere to make up for that.

Well, no, they don't. Any 3rd level human PC will stomp a 1st level drow. The ECL/LA system is broken - its an attempt to level the playing field, but lets be honest - +2 to one attribute, darkness and darkvision, and a +2 to saves and even a SR does not make up for 300% of the hitpoints, 2 extra levels of BAB, 2 extra levels of saves, 2 extra levels of skill points, 2 extra levels of spells, etc. Now, I am fine with paying a penalty to play a drow - but saying that a 1st level drow is the same as a 3rd level human is ridiculous - they are not equal by a long shot. Thats reality.

[indio]

Now, I am fine with paying a penalty to play a drow - but saying that a 1st level drow is the same as a 3rd level human is ridiculous - they are not equal by a long shot. Thats reality.

Solution - forget the rules, just keep them as they are. Someone design 100 quests to enable level 2. Easy.

[Marklos]

I think the main reason for the comparison of 1st level drow to 3rd levle human is equipment. Drow equipment is supposed to kick @$$, and quite frankly, it does not. Drow equipment is supposed to aid greatly in their survivability, but the issue is and always has been, even playing field with regard to wealth, despite the fact that they are definately not equal with regard to personal power.

[Veilan]

Actually, Marky, the only way that Drow Equipment per rules should "kick arse" is that at 1 class level, they have the wealth of a 3rd effective level character (which the other characters in that campaign would have too, though). This, naturally, is nothing really supportable from the get-go, but if we go with the Obsidian system, this should kick in once Drow, or other LA races, reach the exp they would normally need to be allowed in that campaign.

Mikayla, despite your assertions, I'm not going to be "pissed off" either way, as I pointed out earlier, by what kind of system we use as long as it's fair. A system similar to what Inny suggested (less time on level 1, but overall xp penalty, I think even an outright flat xp reduction was suggested as variation), but was mostly booed down from within the LA crowd as being to "unfair" on later levels. Such is the problem - whatever you do, at some other point it will come back around to bite you in the rearcheeks, because of the concessions that have to made for playing in a level 1 campaign.

Well, no, they don't. Any 3rd level human PC will stomp a 1st level drow.

Heh. There is no such thing as a first level drow, unless we implement lesser races.

The ECL/LA system is broken

That is your beef with WotC, not any "omg mean racist anti-drow" clique here out to nerf it. You basically say DnD is unfair, and that you should have something better.

- its an attempt to level the playing field, but lets be honest - +2 to one attribute, darkness and darkvision, and a +2 to saves and even a SR does not make up for 300% of the hitpoints, 2 extra levels of BAB, 2 extra levels of saves, 2 extra levels of skill points, 2 extra levels of spells, etc. Now, I am fine with paying a penalty to play a drow - but saying that a 1st level drow is the same as a 3rd level human is ridiculous - they are not equal by a long shot.

Yeah, probably, with ECL 3 the human has the advantage. The Drow has neat abilities though to escape such a fight or to render that human mage useless, giving him a great chance to escape. Let's not even mention an invisibility toting Duergar, hehe. But that's not the point, whether LA is a big equalizer on 1st class level. At level 6, 10 or 15 the situation suddenly looks a whole lot different - the SR, ability boosts, spell-like abilities are far better then than 1 or 2 class levels.

Thats reality.

Reality is that you're not content with how DnD deals with LA. It's simply not "the mean drow haters" want to "nerf" a race. It would be a lot more constructive and conducive if we laid off the rhetoric there and accepted our positions as what they are, especially since your point has some merit - LA by the core game rules is clumsy around the first level or two, which is exacerbated in the kind of PW where you don't fast forward / skip the first level or two.

Inny and I share the concern of level 1 entry level problems, which may be especially cumbersome to new players who may be on their first Drow wanting to try it out. I also think it's a great idea he wants to create an "all inclusive" outpost-style scenario, where hopefully the community can get together and see how the others offer fun for them, without the constant IC and OOC hostility of the dug-in trenchlines.

Despite contentions to the opposite, I'm happy to support a fair system you guys agree on. I think Mayhem sums it up best when he says to go with published and play-tested systems from the actual game, but I'm certainly not beyond keeping an open mind to try a different ALFA solution, if it fulfills all the basic requirements.

Anyway the topic seems moot considering we seem to have a system most people can accept.

Well, perhaps you'll join us in one of our Ventrilo talks at one point, there are a lot less misunderstandings there, and it's really more pleasant than the easy snide insults bandied about in chat. Dare I say, it was actually fun to chat with Inny .