Scripted Alignment Changes

Ideas and suggestions for game mechanics and rules.
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ç i p h é r
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Post by ç i p h é r »

Mayhem wrote:So you can only take this quest if you agree to say in character the exact words that the builder has decided on, hey?
That's why they call them STATIC quests, hey. Even if you took liberties in the actual phrasing of the responses, you certainly can't just arbitrarily ignore the intent behind a given choice.

Full simulation can never be possible but what choices you have can be tailored to the player based on factors like alignment and gender. So the author has the ability to fine tune a quest to a certain degree and the author also has the ability to give players choices that INTENTIONALLY tests a playes personal convinctions expressly to affect alignment. As I said before, it's quite easy to deduce alignment shifts from static quests.
You might as well have a selection of answers saying:
I take the job for good reasons
I take the job for evil reasons
I take the job for lawful reasons
I take the job for chaotic reasons
I take the job for reasons not aligned with any particular philosophy
I turn down the job.
They could do this, or they could do as Halrin suggested and forgo alignment changes entirely. It's up to each author. Anyway, this thread is needlessly taking on an argumentative tone. Builders will do what they want and you're going to accept it. The End.
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Post by White Warlock »

lol Cipher, but i do agree. Builders will be making the tools, and those who wish to express non-solutions will just have to live with them being productive. ah well...


Expressing my thoughts on this, it returns to whether players intend on maintaining their character's integrity. Characters are defined by the players, not by the game's mechanics, and when they are presented a menu of 'choices' to make, they can choose based on how their character would react, or based on OOC notions. This has always been the case, and it's always been the crook. You can't readily blame the tools created because players decide not to maintain the integrity their character's makeup.

Frankly, i think if a menu presents a lot of reasonable options, so be it. And if you don't like your actions with NPCs associated with static quest, then don't participate in static quests... because they're not there to provide your PC with free xp, but with an opportunity to interact with the 'world' of Toril without the need for a DM. As such, there should be an associated consequence to the decisions you pose when participating in statics. If you see it as anything else, then you're seeing it as someone who wishes to abuse the game engine.

Returning to my earlier post recommendation: Cipher, i think i presented a reasonable argument as to why it should be a slippier slope to stay good and/or lawful, and thus the obtainment of evil/chaotic bumps should be incremental, whilst the obtainment of good/lawful bumps should not be.
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Post by Misty »

ç i p h é r wrote:... Anyway, this thread is needlessly taking on an argumentative tone. Builders will do what they want and you're going to accept it. The End.
dictatorial is much, much better. Thank you!
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Post by HEEGZ »

Alright everyone, let's keep it civil please. Builders can do as they wish, however it will have to pass a standards review to go Live. I think a little faith is in order here. No need to get all worked up over this issue, and if you want to help build for NWN2 please drop me a PM.
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Post by dergon darkhelm »

I really didn't mean to make this a hot button issue when I posted, but I was hoping to open the topic to discussion and come to some consensus precisely in order to prevent the "builders will build what they want" approach.

Opening a locked casket shouldn't give a chaotic point on one server while not on others. Walking a patrol shouldn't give a point of law on one server and not others.

I am not trying to be inflammatory here in any way, so please don't take it as such...

but my understanding of the NWN2 forums in general, and this forum in particular, was to help to develop in-game systems that would help to make the ALFA experience consistant.

Just like wealth levels, experience awards, loot drops, spawns, etc, etc, etc, alignment changes should have some level of consistency.


I was hoping for a civil discourse on this one of many topics to be addressed before the building process in in full swing.
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Post by Brokenbone »

All NPC dialogue gets written in stone, including PC responses, whether it's merchants, dudes with rumours, folks granting statics, whatever. Builders do their best to be reasonable about it I assume, or in cases humorous, memorable, close-to-canon if it's a celebrity NPC, etc.

The builder can't take into account that a PC may be mute or only speak dwarven or loves to rhyme, so replies might say "Sure, show me your armor for sale", or "Yes, I would like to deliver carrots for you" unless the DM happens to be managing that NPC's replies at the moment.

I'd imagine that the "standard for LIVE" ought simply be that the static or other NPC interaction simply be reasonable. If a builder blows 2-3 hours laying out a static, give the guy or gal a break on whether they consider 1 lawful point or whatever ought accrue. If alignment alteration is a great risk to your PC (I guess paladins, monks, or any cleric walking the edge of a proper alignment for their deity), I guess avoid them.

Not meant to be a harsh answer at all, we've had some very successful servers in ALFA with statics I can count on one hand... yet folks still seem to have fun, have PCs propser, etc. I just have this funny feeling that the builders who spend that time on statics might be asked to "dial down the negatives", though you'll seldom see people complain if something like courier work (where maybe a few copper piece per mile is a DMG standard) pays ten or a hundred times the DMG kind of market value.

Again, giving builders the benefit of the doubt if their static seems "reasonable" seems a starting point idea, and if people are tremendously disappointed, offering to join that team as a builder, or create base content for others to borrow, probably are options.
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Post by indio »

If it's a live DM forcing an alignment shift on a player based on the actions of the player, the context of the situation and the possibility that the player might take greater note of alignment in rping, great. If it's a static quest with a broad-stroke, one size fits all alignment shift (like in the official campaign), it's a waste of time, feels misrepresentational and overlooks more effective ways of helping the character develop.
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Post by ç i p h é r »

Misty Eyes wrote:dictatorial is much, much better. Thank you!
What. The thread isn't locked. Discuss to your hearts content! I was simply trying to conclude my rebuttal....with a flourish (ok maybe a huff)! :P

Philosphical debates aside, if you want to have any influence over static content, join a server team and volunteer to create them. Otherwise, set your expectations accordingly. Static quests are not compulsory material. If you don't like the prospects of alignment change or if the game engine simply cannot accommodate your sense of role play entitlement, just ignore them. My personal preference is to see as much variety in static quests as possible.
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Post by White Warlock »

indio wrote:If it's a static quest with a broad-stroke, one size fits all alignment shift (like in the official campaign), it's a waste of time, feels misrepresentational and overlooks more effective ways of helping the character develop.
Generally, i agree with you. However, it would be totally inappropriate for a player to run his character through 'statics' in a way to obtain the 'most' benefits, if the actions his character enters into are not 'in-character.' As i see it, the main purpose for posing alignment point modifiers (and do realize, they are not 'immediate' alignment changes, only points that bring them closer to actually converting alignments), is to ensure statics are dealt with 'in-character' and not exploited for the fat lewt or uber xp. Actions with consequence should be the motto for the development of all statics.
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Post by Mulu »

White Warlock wrote:ensure statics are dealt with 'in-character' and not exploited for the fat lewt or uber xp. Actions with consequence should be the motto for the development of all statics.
Well, realize that static quests are not a pathway to wealth, and never have been. At best they are something to do and have the added benefit of maybe allowing you to afford to replace some healing potions, as well as learn a bit about the server. In other words, the motto for all statics should be "generically IC for many PC's, learn a bit about the server, earn some coin," if you're going to have a motto at all. Actions having meaningful consequences requires DMs.

I don't think I've ever come across a static that is 100% IC for any PC I've played. The ones that seemed IC and that I liked just left me wanting to pursue the introduced plot more, which was impossible, thus not really IC.

Given an opportunity to pursue an activity that would actually advance my PC's story, or run a generic static, the choice is obvious. But the opportunities to advance storyline are rare, so your choices then are sit alone, chat, only play in campaigns, or play elsewhere. Statics introduce another option, called "play the game without a DM," that should be an addition to the game world that makes it more enjoyable, not more frustrating. Thinly justified alignment hits are frustrating.

But Cipher is correct, be thankful for whatever static content gets built. :)
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Post by Cynon »

Hey all! :D

Seems the balls of this all comes from the past. There are statics and such on NWN1 ALFA that gave alignment shifts that almost everyone dissagreed with.

For example: In waterdeep, we had the thug bashing static that mean't if you handed in a knocked out thug to the watch you got some gold and XP and a lawful alignment shift. Awsome for lawful folk who went out and bashed up thugs and got rewarded for it by the watch. Pain in the ass for goodly druidic types and chaotic folk who just happened to want the gold so went about bashing the hell out of anyone stupid enough to attack them in the dodgy back streets of the docks. This is one example don't get caught up in the specific example it's just the one i'm using.

Commonly what us unlawful folks would then do is go up to TLR to the 12's garrison near triboar and take out a longsword from the unlocked chest that was in there, put it back in, close the chest, open the chest take it out again, put it back in close the chest, take it back out again etc etc until the chaotic points it gave you took you back to what you were before.

Halarious I know. In the end did i walk away with a stolen sword? No. (well not always :twisted: ) Did I turn in thugs because I supported the watch? No. I'm still not sure if the thugs were Xanathar or Shadow thieves but since after trying to join both organisation neither wanted me I had no love for them and was trying to punish them for ignoring me. No lawfulness in that, I just liked the waterdeep jails being full and costing the authorities gold and my purse brimming with rewards.

If a few decent roleplayers get together and question the alignment shift a static gives then it shouldn't be there.

If the static is a blatent evil task, for instance, you are asked by someone that is more then obviously a sick, evil little gnome to go kill a paladin of lathander who is tending the graves in the local graveyard,

1. This little evil gnome should nto even be offering this quest to paladins let alone those who are blatently lathandrites.

2. If he offers it to you and you are a goodly soul such as a Chaotic good rogue for example. He can tell from your style and demeanor you are a roguish sort and thought you were the type. If you are and you take on a blatenly evil assassination contract, blatently! You get an evil shift fool!!!

3. If you play an assassin and you are evil as the prince of darkness himself then it needen't be shifting your alignment anymore than it is for you are simply doing what you do for a living.

4. for the sake of the static offering somethign to all character types, there should be the option to now report the smelly little gnome for type 2 up there to a local watchman so that he may be arrested. This should give no alignment shift if it pays a reward. you could be reporting him for any reason, perhaps you saw chance for a reward without having to risk your life fighting someone. What could give you the good alignment shift would be thinking to go tell the paladin in the graveyard that a certain evil gnome and his guild wants the poor fellow dead and to watch out for assassins.

His reward to you could be a script that makes you a well tended grave stone in the grave yard with your PC's name on it when the next Gnome sends evil little gnome assassins after you instead! :twisted:

Mwahahahaaa!
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Post by Brokenbone »

Cynon wrote:<snip>Commonly what us unlawful folks would then do is go up to TLR to the 12's garrison near triboar and take out a longsword from the unlocked chest that was in there, put it back in, close the chest, open the chest take it out again, put it back in close the chest, take it back out again etc etc until the chaotic points it gave you took you back to what you were before.

Halarious I <snip>
This is normally called cheating, exploiting, etc.

When you have a beef with design, you take it up with responsible DMs, rather than find a method (even across a server border) to go get it neutralized, DMless. If the DM's okay with such a plan ("sure, thanks for asking, go senselessly insert/remove swords"), I guess they can bless it, as opposed to spending two seconds with you and their wand, but I'd be surprised. Two wrongs (or at least the first one being a perceived building wrong) do not make a right.
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Post by Cynon »

Bah I had some 2 page rant written out explaining myself and my characters actions and justifications but hells with it I don't give a crap what you think. Go judge yourself. I can take it or leave it, I don't even play here anymore. No one cares about stupid little crap like that and if they do they really are quite neurotic.

Go flame someone who is afraid of getting banned or having a PC deleted or nerfed or some such :shock:

Some of you ALFAns are as pretencious as Elfs. It's the detail that lets this place down. Don't worry about it. Just set stuff up and Roleplay, enjoy the game, have fun. Living to control the fricken weight of gold or how much someone's character can own on an internet D&D game is really not a life at all.

Trust the people you play with, they are here for the RP, there are far better player worlds out there for all the stuff you guys are worried about. Far Far better and a lot less stressful. It won't kill you to just do your best and have faith everyone else is also.

Damn I forgot how anal this place is.

Jeeez!

1 afternoon of being "back" and i'm accused of something!
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Post by White Warlock »

Well Cynon, it's not an accusation, it's a fact. Brokenbone is correct in stating that what you did with the sword was exploiting a bug, which is potentially a bannable offense. It's not about obsessiveness, as it is about ensuring penalties are across the board. Should you have been judged on this, a reasonable analysis would have presented that your actions were not extreme, and basically only affected your character's place in the game, so it would very likely have not resulted in anything other than a slap on the wrist and a request to 'inform' the DMs of these bugs and design issues, rather than find a 'personal' means to bypass/exploit them.

And while i understand the intent of your post, and the message you are trying to present, the problem with the solution you (and possibly others) found to this 'flaw' in alignment modifs, is that it does not 'fix' the problem for everyone else. Thus, your actions were self-serving, and what you should have done was report the 'lawful-shift' alignmnent script as insufficient and not addressing 'motives' and the sword stealing alignment script as broken. In any other gaming environment, it wouldn't matter, but this is a volunteer project that requires everyone's participation. It's free, with an inferred request for payment through participation in debugging and otherwise.

Still, you do bring up the truth, which is that: the way it was done in the past was damn stupid and we don't need to repeat the mistakes of the past, which is why we have these discussions in the first place.

And, i hope you come back to play, and don't repeat the mistakes you made. Thanks for the honesty. ;)
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Post by White Warlock »

By the way guys/gals working on the app process, how about we don't 'infer' participation in development, but insist upon it, in writing, as a requirement for membership?
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