Speeds and armor

[JaydeMoon]

There is also another thing to note in terms of 'why not':

Absolute control vs buggy DM interface/limitations of the medium.

In PnP, I as the DM have absolute control over the monsters. Players have absolute control over what they want their PCs to do. Everything is done in a slower pace which also caps encounters.

Fighting a losing battle, everyone in the party has a lot more time to think about what it is that they can do to contribute to the ability of the warrior to run away. In the 18 seconds that our mage is thinking 'ohshitohshitohshit', our slowpokes could already be dead.

But in PnP, the mage can move, note what the monster is doing, make the call to cast a distractive spell and perhaps save our warrior by doing so.

Not that you can't do it in our medium, but PnP lends itself to that.

Also, in the midst of crazy combat with multiple monsters, our DM will be able to completely and critically determine what each monster is doing. Perhaps monster A isn't as interested in man in a can when there is a tasty looking rogue morsel dangling tantalizingly from a rope, seemingly in a corner. As a DM I can make a decision for that monster even as I control 5 other monsters attacking five other people.

That doesn't even go into all of the options PCs have in PnP that just aren't as readily viable in our medium, such as the aforementioned Rogue on a Rope. There wouldn't be one in ALFA because it takes direct DM intervention to 'climb'. It's buggy and causes us to hold up, stop, wait.

So where Armor speed penalties add to the realism in PnP, they also have the benefit of not taking away from the fun factor because you have a whole lot of options that are more easily available to your party and the DM can easily micromanage the encounter.

But add speed penalties in our medium where any is fight arguably more deadly to begin with and there are generally a lot more of them, and suddenly the idea in practice becomes much less fun.

[t-ice]

From the perspective of someone who has done this in an RP-focused world that used movement rates based on armor/encumbrance that mirrored PnP exactly: it reduces diversity of characters, and turns every chase scene into an orgy of attacks of opportunity that murders everything with short legs or medium/ heavy armor.

While it would be interesting to hear just what type of PCs was the "less diverse" result of this, and it might be arguable that the described orgy of murder is the appropriate outcome for slow characters fleeing, the general point remains:

The real time nature of the engine makes the game different from PnP, and this must be considered rather than blindly implementing timeflow related PnP rules. "PnP rules are always the best" is a good guideline, but not an article of faith.

Crucially speeds matter only relative to one another, and overwhelmingly it's PCs vs. Monsters that is relevant. It doesn't matter whether the heavy armor guy is faster than the light armor one, it matters who is faster or slower than the monster they're fighting. In PnP, and by any "believability check", most monsters are faster than PCs regardless of the armor the PCs wear.

If you want to change the NWN2 simplification of movement rules, where almost everyone moves at the same speed, to resemble PnP, by all means if you're up to coding it. But implementing the system must take monsters into account, in fact it only makes sense to start from the monster end as there the differences are much more relevant. If you just make some PCs slower than all monster (heavies) or faster than all monster (lights), you will only end up creating very odd "combat tactic" situations and loopholes on the engine, and manage to make the in-game reality further from the intent of believability. As the extreme example, I give you the lvl1 barbarian who single-handedly farmed dozens of giants with a ranged weapon. We don't want to make such "tactics" more prevalent an option.

The option discussed, armor speeds hak, would make perfect sense on a PvP Arena server, I suppose. Here we should compare with the monsters first, and the only sensible conclusion is to stick with NWN2 "dumbing down" real-time solution as working those monsters is a gargantuan task.

[Regalis]

tl;dr most of this; however, adjusting speeds for armors is like a 15 minute fix. People keep setting up straw men about devoting precious resources to other areas. That's a non-argument.

[oldgrayrogue]

As Jayde aptly points out, implementation of PnP movement speed -- designed for a purely turn based environment where you have the time to strategize and think out your next move -- does not translate well to a real time video game based on D&D which is what we all play here. I was involved in a DM'd dungeon crawl last night, and I can tell you for certain that the battle would have proceeded much differently if we were playing on a table top. Its apples and oranges. When dealing with monster AI its even worse. A DM can at least hit a pause button. Players don't have a pause button. I simply cannot react faster than a computerized brain to implement the lauded "group combat tactics" that everyone seems to think will be the result of slowing down heavy armor wearers. When you consider lag as well, which is quite a common experience, the problem is compounded. I know there have been many times I sat there clicking away at a CLW potion but my PC got dropped by the orc chasing me before the game engine recognized my click. Or worse, cast the cure on another player or enemy because I had them selected instead of my toon and neglected to change it in the chaos of battle. These are realities that the proposed fix and the call for PnP rules supremity completely ignores. In my view, all this change will result in is more deaths for low level characters of all classes. A secondary result will be an even greater focus on purely tavern based RP with most low levels petrified to ever leave the safety of city walls. This type of "realism," which is ill suited to the platform we actually play on, will not improve the fun for anyone in my opinion.

[mogonk]

I am forced to reconsider. You all make some very strong arguments. T-Ice in particular raises some issues about monster speeds that are really hard to dispute. It may not be realistic to implement movement penalties.

Can we agree, though, that in the absence of movement penalties, a balancing factor has been removed from the game, and that therefore, one should be added in its place? Something needs to represent the fact that heavy armor is, well, heavy. Maybe you're right, maybe movement penalties are not the way to go...but are you with me on the idea that we should do something?

Could the fatigue penalty discussed earlier in the thread be made to work?

[kmj2587]

So it looks like we've got a few points to consider here.

1) The mobility vs protection trade off that is used as a balancing factor between light and heavy armor does not exist in NwN2.

2) Movement penalties for heavy armor are undesirable in a real time environment compared to PnP's turn based system

3) The removal of this trade off, Uncanny Dodge being broken, and the fact that lightly armored characters are flat footed whenever not actively engaged in combat shifts the balance in favor of heavy armor.

Is this summary agreeable to both sides?

The next question is whether or not we think this should be addressed at all. It would be nice to separate those who think that this is not a problem and should not be addressed from those who simply do not wish to see heavy armor penalized and may be using this argument.

IF we think it should be addressed, the next question is what do we do about it? Obviously movement penalties are a somewhat unpopular idea, and good reasons have been provided for that. Personally, I don't care much for the fatigue idea either. When you're working in a party, the lightly armored characters really depend on the heavily armored characters to hold their own so that they have the chance to flank and sneak attack stuff. You'd really just be inadvertently penalizing the entire party.

Balance goes two ways though. You can penalize the more powerful side, or you can provide benefits to the weaker side. What would you say about providing lightly armored characters some kind of compensating benefit? We can't seem to find a stick we can agree on, so we might as well try to find a carrot instead. I would like to throw the idea out there, but avoid the discussion of what could be used due to the fact that I play a lightly armored character who suffers from broken uncanny dodge.

[Veilan]

I am not of the mind that uncanny dodge plays much of a role in this particular discussion. The assumption is, and should be, that we will fix it eventually - the imbalance of heavy armour is founded in the lack of any trade-off for using it.

As I have said, I do not desire some kludgy solution that is more harm than gain, and am not particularly tied to trying to emulate PnP 1:1, since it at some times is a very bad advisor for a 24/7 CRPG PW.

The fact of importance is that heavy armour lacks any drawbacks. It has drawbacks in PnP, and I believe for a reason. Now, what drawbacks should it or could it have that we would deem acceptable for our format?
Thanks to dan to take up that challenge and provide some great input and ideas, but I hope still more people can be drawn out of their reserve, and provide something.

The other proposed route, that of boons to light armoured characters, seems somewhat acceptable, but rather counterintuitive to me - the fact is that heavy armour is too good, not that light armour is too bad. We would then end up with the balance of monsters versus PCs shifted even more in favour of PCs, and in our CRPG setting the CR of a monster already is a vast exaggeration of its actual danger. We should rather let some air out of the overblown balloon than blow up the next bubble, no?

And again, just for emphasis, uncanny dodge is an argument in itself and should be addressed in its own consideration (I could see some "placeholder" boon given to uncanny dodge characters, until it is fixed - here that would make sense).

Cheers,

[oldgrayrogue]

IMO the issue here is with light armored characters not getting the combat benefits they deserve. If that issue can be addressed, then address it. Don't nerf another class to address it.

Now, if the consensus seems to be that giving heavy armor users some penalty is desirable to at least bring it somewhat in line with PnP, because of the supposed advantage of heavy armor, how about this: strength of at least 19 is required to use heavy armor. This increased strength requirement accounts for the ability to "overcome" the decrease of mobility and speed that is supposed to result from a movement speed penalty. Not perfect, but kind of makes sense as a compromise. It can be coded right into the armor models as well. Not usuable unless you have strength 19 or better (yes it will take some editing in the toolset and I say whoever really wants this change can volunteer to do it or it just won't get done). 19 Strength not high enough? Make it 20 or 21. Or attach a CON requirement as well to simulate the stamina necessary to move around freely in the armor.

I don't like fatigue penalties. Like environmental effects (cold, heat stroke etc.) all they do is make the game a chore and a bore to play. Its like forcing toons to stop and eat and crap in the name of "hardcore" roleplay. Its just a drag, and drags down the whole party. I play this game in the limited time I have to do so as an escape from the rigors of real life to pretend I am a fantasy hero, not to simulate the annoying necessities of real life. A strength score prerequisite has inherent built in balancing to it. You wanna play a tank, then you actually will have to BE a tank. And it gives the player choices to make with consequences for the choices that do not make the game a drag to play. And before people say this is an invitation to min max, let me offer the services of PA to investigate for powergaming any player suspected of min maxing simply so they can use heavy armor.

[thinkpig]

I agree with OGR on movement penalties just generally being a drag. Bearing in mind my character wears only light armors and is a half-elf, consider this--

In PnP if I remember correctly, dwarves and other small ones move at the same decreased speed as folks running around in medium armor.

While the different movement rates would make for more realistic combat, think about what a pain it would be to be in party with, say, a Dwarf or a human in heavy armor. The whole party has to like stop and let them catch up every now and again... true, this adds another layer of realism and immersion, but where do you draw the line? It's annoying enough to me that barbarians can out walk you-- as though your PC couldn't increase their pace to match the walk speed of another with a Constitution or Fortitude check or something... we're dealing with a level of detail that the game engine doesn't seem to have been designed to accomodate.

If it were up to me I'd say we should leave the whole issue alone.

[mogonk]

The problem with the idea of a strength requirement is that it doesn't accomplish the intended goal of giving heavy armor a drawback, it just makes it unusable unless you have sufficiently high strength. If you do have enough strength, heavy armor would have no drawback at all, and we're back where we started. And if you don't have enough strength, you wouldn't be able to make a choice about using it, as opposed to having to weigh the drawbacks and advantages. That reduces PC choice without fully addressing the balance issues.

The advantage of having to make a fort save to resist fatigue/exhaustion is that the penalty would apply to all characters, but would be more manageable for characters that one would expect to wear heavy armor: big hardy guys with high con scores and Great Fortitude. Also, let's remember that becoming fatigued does not take you out of combat, it's a relatively minor penalty. Wanna wear heavy armor? Well, every now and then you take a -2 STR/-2 DEX until you rest. Not that much of a drag. We could even add the PnP endurance feat (+4 to checks to resist fatigue) to the game to give people another way to compensate for the penalties.

the fact is that heavy armour is too good, not that light armour is too bad. We would then end up with the balance of monsters versus PCs shifted even more in favour of PCs, and in our CRPG setting the CR of a monster already is a vast exaggeration of its actual danger. We should rather let some air out of the overblown balloon than blow up the next bubble, no?

I think this is a very strong point against applying a bonus to lightly armored characters, rather than a penalty to heavily armored ones. Applying a bonus is inherently a more popular approach, as nobody likes to get hit with the nerf stick, but I don't think it makes sense here.

[JaydeMoon]

Fatigue is a good compromise if you are lowering str and dex by a couple points if/when you get hit with the fatigue monster.

It is a simple passive adjustment that can be totally handled by the scripts and does not create an overly onerous burden to the player. -1 AC, AB, and DMG are hardly gamebreaking. Suddenly finding yourself unable to run because your now overweight is fine with me, I never liked seeing fully plated warriors waling around with two backpacks full of crap in the first place.

Full realism isn't necessary, but adding things that aren't overly onerous that can make things more exciting and perhaps add a dimension are fine.

Fatigue that slows your character or forces a short stop would not work for me. Fatigue that lowers your strength or dex by a small amount for a short period of time seem like a great compromise. I don't know about needing a rest to reset it... maybe 10-15 minutes of idle time can work as well?

[Audark]

I'm with jayde,

Fatigue seems good, a good penalty that's not too onerous, if that plate wearer is carrying one metric f***-ton of stuff then maybe'll they'll have to toss something to be able to run away.

This seems like a pretty good system to me.

That said I hope this is set up in a way that isn't just completely random as to when fatigue sets in. People tend to know their limits and could fighter smarter, not harder if they could appreciably predict how far they could push their individual characters

((I should add that while I am voicing my support for something said here, by and large I think this whole discussion is entirely unnecessary, and the effort to completely balance everything is ultimately futile. I do not think this problem is worth the time devoted to this massive thread, let alone any time that would need to be put into an actual solution))

[Swift]

So how would fatigue work in extended DM sessions?

You know the ones: The events that, in game time, take place in the space of a night, while in reality they take 5 hours because of dice rolls, dm descriptions, pausing, client crashes and so on.

((I should add that while I am voicing my support for something said here, by and large I think this whole discussion is entirely unnecessary, and the effort to completely balance everything is ultimately futile. I do not think this problem is worth the time devoted to this massive thread, let alone any time that would need to be put into an actual solution))

Needless to say, since its been said by a dozen different people a dozen different times, but I once again agree with this sentiment.

[mogonk]

So how would fatigue work in extended DM sessions?

You know the ones: The events that, in game time, take place in the space of a night, while in reality they take 5 hours because of dice rolls, dm descriptions, pausing, client crashes and so on.

We have the same issues with buffs wearing off in the status quo. People would deal with it, or if they weren't in combat they would take their armor off. It's not like knights in the middle ages would ever sit around in their armor to have a beer. It was put on for combat and removed afterward.

As far as the "why bother?" question, this one of those situations where the perfect is the enemy of the good. The fact that we can't ever perfectly balance the game is not a reason not to try to make it more balanced than it is. Making things better is not futile. That's how progress occurs.

[t-ice]

A system that imposes penalties after some time based on on-engine will lead to cludges and is awful far as a DM event is concerned. People will game around the system, as they do with buff duration and RP now, and it will just add a layer of frustration to game so as to avoid the penalties. Server time isn't anywhere near IC time on a DM event.

If you put some penalties/bonuses to armor, at least put them so that they're on when the armor is on.

There's plenty of numbers you could tweak from SRD values to balance combat "better". I'm entirely unconvinced it'll make the game better, even if I think game balance might be better served with tweaked armor values. It's so not worth losing the d20 system combat numbers as standard reference for planning things such a items for PCs.