Speeds and armor

[Swift]

You come around a corner wearing full plate. There are three orc thugs there. Distracting them isn't going to make up for the fact that they move twice as fast as you, it will buy you at most one round, a head start they can catch up to by the next round. Playing dead is pointless, orcs aren't THAT stupid. Throwing a stone will not slow them down, it will do 1d2 points of damage to one of them. You can either stay and fight, or try to run and die. Any DM who lets a fighter in full plate escape in that scenario by doing any of the things you mentioned is coddling his players.

Perhaps I should have added the words "for example". What I was trying to get at, which you glossed over entirely, is that in PnP you have options when it comes to retreat. Here, you don't. You either stay, fight, and probably die or run, and if the mob is faster than you, you probably die.

[mogonk]

Perhaps I should have added the words "for example". What I was trying to get at, which you glossed over entirely, is that in PnP you have options when it comes to retreat. Here, you don't. You either stay, fight, and probably die or run, and if the mob is faster than you, you probably die.

I didn't mean to gloss over your point, I meant to address it. I was trying to demonstrate that while you do have options other than run or fight in PnP, they usually aren't good options. They aren't real options at all. We're talking about a situation wherein your movement speed is literally half that of the people pursuing you, and you are taking massive penalties to any attempt to conceal yourself. Or jump over things. Or climb anything. Or swim. Etc. Barring some sort of deus ex machina, you are not getting away. It's not happening. Your extra options mean exactly nothing.

What you're saying is based on the idea that a heavily armored player should be able to escape from opponents in ALFA because he can escape from opponents in PnP. What I'm saying is that people in heavy armor can't escape from opponents in PnP (because the system is designed to make sure that they can't), so any conclusions you're drawing based on the idea that they can is invalid.

And why is the system designed that way? Because the idea of a heavily armored man escaping from anyone or anything is freaking absurd. It's a suit of armor. You're a big shiny turtle. If you fall down, there's a good chance you won't even be able to stand again.

[danielmn]

I think I'm missing something. Why would we need to come up with a new penalty for wearing heavy armor when one already exists in PnP? If it ain't broke...

Because this is the brainstorming thread, where all options are weighed according to balance. The more options presented, perhaps the better the balance upon implementation due to more choices. If the end product matches the pnp product of the rules, I'm fine with it, as long as we aren't labeling it a "balance issue of heavy armour vrs light and medium because light/medium armours are getting skimped due to broken feats" and instead putting it forth as a "heavy armour users need more of a detriment beyond what is already in the system for CLASS balance".

We're also looking at differing standards as far as wealth is concerned. DM awards tend to be in items, graciously tooled by the dms, and not monetary rewards such as coin and gem (though I have had dms where gems were far more used than others). IN that respect, the PC has little choice in the items they obtain, but instead rely on the cool and neat items they find. In that aspect, a pnp player would be far more likely to be able to counteract the slowness heavy armour bestows by either the purchase and or contracting of an item, such as the previously mentioned ring of expeditious retreat or mithril full plate, than a pc in ALFA would be. Added into that is the factor of IG trying to find someone to craft something of the sort for you vrs. availability in pnp... I would think, by my own sheer guessing, a pnp player would have the upper hand in that aspect comparative to an ALFA player, which leads me to believe that the counteraction of the slowness of heavy armour could and would occur quicker and probably at a lower level in pnp than it would in ALFA. That being said, I definately agree that some further restriction of heavy armours wouldn't be amiss, as to what the best implementation for a restriction is, I couldn't say, though I'm more than happy to roll with whatever is decided upon.

A further "penalization" for heavy armour comes in with the fact that one pays 1500 for a set of full plate, giving the fighter pc a probable 18 AC, whilst the light armour wearing PC's spend 100 for a chain shirt, gets equal AC, and 1400 gold toward a ring of protection...but that's a given.

[mogonk]

In that aspect, a pnp player would be far more likely to be able to counteract the slowness heavy armour bestows by either the purchase and or contracting of an item, such as the previously mentioned ring of expeditious retreat or mithril full plate, than a pc in ALFA would be. Added into that is the factor of IG trying to find someone to craft something of the sort for you vrs. availability in pnp... I would think, by my own sheer guessing, a pnp player would have the upper hand in that aspect comparative to an ALFA player, which leads me to believe that the counteraction of the slowness of heavy armour could and would occur quicker and probably at a lower level in pnp than it would in ALFA.

That's a deliberate choice that has been made. ALFA has been made a low-magic setting. The PCs have approximately the same options they would in a low-magic, low-level PnP campaign. And again, those campaigns work fine. There's nothing there that's broken and needs fixing.

The fact that the setting limits PCs options doesn't mean that the rules should be illogically distorted to give them new options. It makes about as much sense as saying that a PC should be able to wield a greatsword one-handed, because it's harder to obtain a magic sword in ALFA. Makes no sense from a balance perspective, makes no sense from the perspective of verisimilitude.

That's one thing the PnP rules are really excellent at, especially at low levels: mimicing the real world. That's why unless they have clearly been demonstrated not to work in ALFA (which hasn't happened here), I think that's the way to go.

A further "penalization" for heavy armour comes in with the fact that one pays 1500 for a set of full plate, giving the fighter pc a probable 18 AC, whilst the light armour wearing PC's spend 100 for a chain shirt, gets equal AC, and 1400 gold toward a ring of protection...but that's a given.

....assuming the PC has 18 dex, yeah. That's a big assumption, one that isn't true for most characters. Meanwhile, the plate wearer put those attribute points into strength...or con...or whatever. Don't try to contend that light armor's protective value is as good as plate, or even in the same ballpark. Same AC + no attribute investment = massively overpowered without penalties.

[danielmn]

Oh, I am not contending anything whatsoever. Merely pointing out facts, and yeah, that's assuming the 18 dex PC's, most have 14-16 if they're relying on lighter armours and not 18. I don't post here to show off brainpower, merely to add to the thought process and discussion, most times probably needlessly, as there are obviously people here much smarter than I like yourself and V and Blind and Ith who have a better understanding of balance and rules than I myself do.

I can't argue verisimilitude, as my degree was in history and not english. I don't know what the word means. I assume it has something to do with continuity via the setting though. Since I've seen the word tossed about lately (it must be someones favorite word to look intelligent, I see that from time to time) I'll likely look it up at some point.

So, someone get this ball rolling and make heavy armours slow down the wearer already. It's pretty obvious it is what pnp calls for and what the masses want.

[Blindhamsterman]

most times probably needlessly, as there are obviously people here much smarter than I like yourself and V and Blind and Ith who have a better understanding of balance and rules than I myself do.

Hardly, I believe you do yourself a serious injustice with that comment, and I certainly wouldn't call myself smarter, or even any more knowledgable about Balance, your posts are always well thought out and tend to make points nobody else had picked up on.

also, because of the nature of NWN2 (CRPG non PNPRPG) I'm personally in favour of your suggestion of the con or fort checks, with higher DCs based on weight of armour, it's a more balanced solution for a CRPG, and does an adequite job of displaying a difference in types of armour, but also in types of people that wear armour (Dwarves for example are usually going to have better CON/Fort saves than an elf, meaning they can get away with heavier armours, for longer periods than an elf could)

[danielmn]

also, because of the nature of NWN2 (CRPG non PNPRPG) I'm personally in favour of your suggestion of the con or fort checks, with higher DCs based on weight of armour, it's a more balanced solution for a CRPG, and does an adequite job of displaying a difference in types of armour, but also in types of people that wear armour (Dwarves for example are usually going to have better CON/Fort saves than an elf, meaning they can get away with heavier armours, for longer periods than an elf could)

It's certainly something that could be experimented with, since V asked for alternative suggestions. Granted, I am no scriptor whatsoever so I don't know the amount of work involved or if it can even be replicated, so I have no basis to compare the worktime of the endevour to that of the worktime needed for the other proposed overhauls suggested previously. It's a hard call as to what to introduce from pnp for online play and what to leave out balance wise. It's at least an alternative to ponder.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

So...implement a worse penalty that doesn't have a basis in PnP at all, over speed reductions which do?

The ALFA of the future will have everyone in chain shirts, running around and laughing at the odd-ball who can slay a troll, but gets tuckered out walking down the road in his heavy armor.

[danielmn]

So...implement a worse penalty that doesn't have a basis in PnP at all, over speed reductions which do?

The ALFA of the future will have everyone in chain shirts, running around and laughing at the odd-ball who can slay a troll, but gets tuckered out walking down the road in his heavy armor.

I'm sorry...did you have an alternative suggestion?

[mogonk]

I don't post here to show off brainpower, merely to add to the thought process and discussion, most times probably needlessly, as there are obviously people here much smarter than I like yourself and V and Blind and Ith who have a better understanding of balance and rules than I myself do.

I'm not trying to show off either, and I'm not trying to come off as aggressive as I probably do on this. I'm definitely not saying I'm smarter than anybody else, or that I know more about the rules.

I don't know much about coding either. But I do know that there is already a hak out there which assigns movement penalties based on armor: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NW ... ail&id=153

It doesn't do it right, because it assigns a movement penalty to light armor as well, and has the wrong values for the speed reduction on medium and heavy armor. But simply modifying those values would be extremely straightforward.

So...implement a worse penalty that doesn't have a basis in PnP at all, over speed reductions which do?

That's pretty much how I feel about it.

PnP rules should be our default state, and the first thing we turn to when looking for solutions to balance problems. When we start making up penalties that don't exist in PnP, we are in uncharted waters. Balancing something like that is tricky, and I just don't see the need when PnP already has a straightforward penalty that accomplishes what we need it to.

[Swift]

I'm sorry...did you have an alternative suggestion?

We continue as we have done for 10 years re: movement speed of heavy armor and put our minds and technical time/skills towards things that would actually increase the fun people can have while playing?

ALFA 1 never fell over because zomg mr fighter can still move the same as everyone else.

[danielmn]

I don't know much about coding either. But I do know that there is already a hak out there which assigns movement penalties based on armor: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NW ... ail&id=153

It doesn't do it right, because it assigns a movement penalty to light armor as well, and has the wrong values for the speed reduction on medium and heavy armor. But simply modifying those values would be extremely straightforward.

That might save some time codewise if we can strike the light armour movement and are able to change the rates for medium and heavy.

[oldgrayrogue]

I'm sorry...did you have an alternative suggestion?

We continue as we have done for 10 years re: movement speed of heavy armor and put our minds and technical time/skills towards things that would actually increase the fun people can have while playing?

ALFA 1 never fell over because zomg mr fighter can still move the same as everyone else.

QFT

[mogonk]

I'm sorry...did you have an alternative suggestion?

We continue as we have done for 10 years re: movement speed of heavy armor and put our minds and technical time/skills towards things that would actually increase the fun people can have while playing?

ALFA 1 never fell over because zomg mr fighter can still move the same as everyone else.

It doesn't ruin the game at all. I don't think anybody thinks it does. At least, I hope not, that would be kinda silly. But the fact that a problem is not catastrophic in scale doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed.

I think the fact that a number of people strongly support this idea indicates that it would "actually increase the fun they have playing". Consistent rules and the semblance of realism contribute to the fun of a lot of people. It's conducive to immersion. It's good for game balance. Those aren't considerations that you're into as much as others are? That's fine, and it's to be expected that different people have different tastes.

Generally, though, ALFA seems to attempt to A. reproduce PnP rules when possible, and B. create believable settings and experiences. Really, the two go hand in hand. Those are both good principles, and I think they should be followed in those situations where the cost in terms of time spent coding isn't too great. In this instance, it seems like this would be comparatively easy to solve.

So why not? Other than knee-jerk conservatism. Let's pretend that this has already been fixed: What's the argument for removing the movement penalty for heavy armor?

[Zelknolf]

So why not? Other than knee-jerk conservatism. Let's pretend that this has already been fixed: What's the argument for removing the movement penalty for heavy armor?

From the perspective of someone who has done this in an RP-focused world that used movement rates based on armor/encumbrance that mirrored PnP exactly: it reduces diversity of characters, and turns every chase scene into an orgy of attacks of opportunity that murders everything with short legs or medium/ heavy armor.

And having seen how people on that world came to cope with the problems that heavy armor represent: ALFA doesn't have ridable horses. Which is exactly how -- if we're going for realism -- people in the high middle ages who were wealthy enough to do so handled the problems of mobility represented by plate armor. They rode a hilariously-shaggy foot-shuffling horse to get from point A to point B, and had someone lead a gigantic beast that makes one question if horses aren't actually God's wrath given flesh to ride when it's time to kill stuff.

Also worth noting that a heavy warhorse costs significantly less than full plate. It would totally be level 2 loot, if PCs didn't just buy a horse sooner. Because they should be pretty durn common.