Dear admin

[AcadiusLost]

Though it doesn't address the larger concerns; I did find and hopefully patch the problem with the numbers widget today. In brief, any time ANY of the three live servers received a restart (via crash or planned module restart), it was marking all online players as offline for purposes of the numbers widget. So, any new logins registered, any players who remained on did not.

Should be OK from here on out.

[Mirabai]

Has anybody ever gotten 4-5 DMs together and cooperatively engaged in creating a campaign of that scale, to create converging storylines among multiple player groups? That would go a long way towards distributing the work required. Hell, I know of many players who build but don't DM. Recruit them to help on the campaign. Obviously, everyone is a volunteer, but to the greatest extent possible we should try to recruit builders to create areas for DM events, as opposed to just "cool places to wander around in".

I don't see any reason why that couldn't work.

This has been attempted, again and again, and every time it is a colossal disaster. I don't even want to get into all the various ways it becomes a clusterfck, as just thinking about the many times over the years I have become enmeshed in such webs of horror my brain begins to boil and every fiber in my being screams out in agony. Leave it at that.

[dirsa]

Has anybody ever gotten 4-5 DMs together and cooperatively engaged in creating a campaign of that scale, to create converging storylines among multiple player groups? That would go a long way towards distributing the work required. Hell, I know of many players who build but don't DM. Recruit them to help on the campaign. Obviously, everyone is a volunteer, but to the greatest extent possible we should try to recruit builders to create areas for DM events, as opposed to just "cool places to wander around in".

I don't see any reason why that couldn't work.

i've seen a number of massive plots attempted in alfa. i believe i've even seen a couple brought to their conclusion. there are two things that have always bothered me about the epic plots.

1. the time investment. it's rather hard to gather up all the involved players on some resemblance of a schedule. and what do the heroes to be do when their epic plot is'n on? it's seems silly to say - well, we're involved in this epic fight to save the faerun, but tonight, what the hell.. let's kill some local goblins! and i'm not even going to attempt to picture the strain it puts on a dm. or worse yet, a dm who came to replace dm who started the plot but had to bow out... (p.s. sorry dan. i can't help but feel guilty about being part of folk trying to railroad you into finishing the quest you likely didn't want to do....)

2. the silly feeling most of the epic plots are accompanied by. i mean, the existence of city, region, faerun is in jeopardy, and it's a group of low/mid level peeps, some of whom are still looking to acquire their first magic gadget are expected to save the day? i keep expecting elminster to jump out of bushes and yell surprise at any moment...


anyhow, while epic quests may sound great on paper, i'd have to say short stories with perhaps consequences that will linger make much more sense to me. but... the last thing - it's really not my call. whomever is the dm, chooses the story.

[mogonk]

Just because a campaign has a sustained plotline doesn't mean it has to be returning the One Ring to Mordor in order to prevent the Dark Lord from conquering the world. Dirsa, you use the word epic a lot. I don't think a campaign has to be epic, so I think maybe we're talking about different things.

I think it's worth noting that whatever attempts have been made in the past, there is a good chance that if we were to go through the list, we could trace their failure to details of their implementation (aspiring to be "epic" sounds like it might be one), rather than the central premise of "a sustained campaign". In other words, it would be very hard to demonstrate that their failure was inevitable.

It would be a lot easier to make a case for it simply being more trouble than it's worth. I could buy that. Of the 10 items on that list, it's definitely not the first one I'd want to see implemented.

[Blindhamsterman]

so... mogonk, are you DMing yet?

genuinely interested to travel to whichever server you end up doing it on, you have lots of ideas on the forums

[mogonk]

Nope, not yet. It may be a while yet. You'll be the first to know.

[danielmn]

Has anybody ever gotten 4-5 DMs together and cooperatively engaged in creating a campaign of that scale, to create converging storylines among multiple player groups? That would go a long way towards distributing the work required. Hell, I know of many players who build but don't DM. Recruit them to help on the campaign. Obviously, everyone is a volunteer, but to the greatest extent possible we should try to recruit builders to create areas for DM events, as opposed to just "cool places to wander around in".

I don't see any reason why that couldn't work.

i've seen a number of massive plots attempted in alfa. i believe i've even seen a couple brought to their conclusion. there are two things that have always bothered me about the epic plots.

1. the time investment. it's rather hard to gather up all the involved players on some resemblance of a schedule. and what do the heroes to be do when their epic plot is'n on? it's seems silly to say - well, we're involved in this epic fight to save the faerun, but tonight, what the hell.. let's kill some local goblins! and i'm not even going to attempt to picture the strain it puts on a dm. or worse yet, a dm who came to replace dm who started the plot but had to bow out... (p.s. sorry dan. i can't help but feel guilty about being part of folk trying to railroad you into finishing the quest you likely didn't want to do....)

2. the silly feeling most of the epic plots are accompanied by. i mean, the existence of city, region, faerun is in jeopardy, and it's a group of low/mid level peeps, some of whom are still looking to acquire their first magic gadget are expected to save the day? i keep expecting elminster to jump out of bushes and yell surprise at any moment...


anyhow, while epic quests may sound great on paper, i'd have to say short stories with perhaps consequences that will linger make much more sense to me. but... the last thing - it's really not my call. whomever is the dm, chooses the story.

For #1... Getting all PC's involved together is def. problematic. A diversified strategy can be employed, making the quest involve multiple "groups" of PC's across and within each server...communication both intra and extra server being one of the "keys" to really getting an overall picture of the plot, so that though player A may not be there, players C and D are. As for the apology, completely not necessarry, I enjoyed the heck out of Dming you guys, the main pain was, and I believe remains, documentation. Having to peice what has gone before you together is not fun. If I were HDM again and had an appreciable DM crew, I would def. get the DM's to submit an outline of the plotline before it even begins (which was done to some extent with NPC's on that plotline) as well as a checklist of things accomplished and not accomplished within the timeframe allowed by the DM...I think it is important for DM's to keep in mind things progress forward, with or without the PC's involvement. If the PC's screw around...things continue to progress and actions of the "opposition" continue forward. Good DM's also often place opposable goals within a timeframe, say, two negative things are going to happen without the PC's involvement, but if the PC's do get involved, they only have time enough to prevent one of the two negative things, thereby causing the PC to choose which to prevent, not knowing when the opposition will succeed with their actions. Having a checklist of the oppositions movements, as well as timeframe, and the dms actively checking off after every session what was and was not accomplished and the oppositions reaction will help in an overall situation of a lengthy plot involving multiple dms.

2. The PC's shouldn't be the "main" driving force of the prevention of evil when "great" evil arises, such as the case of the evil in Mordor. There should be NPC's interacting with the PC's whom face an equal if not greater part of the threat that arises if the opposition that arises is a great good or a great evil. Though success may hinge on the PC's involvement, the PC's may not neccessarily be confronting the big good or evil opposition that arises, but instead takes "side missions" that have an overall impact on what the NPC's are facing... Ie. NPC group holds off a small ogre army, while the PC faction/group is sent out to deal with their lesser allies, the orcs. Though the PC's aren't neccessarily saving the day, the elimination of the orc allies will have an impact on what the NPC group is facing. Multiple side quests could be set up in this fashion, and it was what I attempted in the plot I ran for you guys.

Just a few thoughts on what I myself have experienced both as a DM as well as a player, Viigas does an awesome job with the timeline aspect of things occuring after a certain time dependant on weather the PC's have acted or not.

[oldgrayrogue]

Global, even cross server global, plotlines can work. Global campaigns are unworkable.

With a global plotline different groups of PCs at varying levels can each get involved in their own "chaper" of the story (to borrow a phrase from Mirabai). As Dan describes, the story goes on with or without them. Trying to coordinate that into a traditional campaign usually ends up being a big headache that burns you out as a DM.

[psycho_leo]

Just because a campaign has a sustained plotline doesn't mean it has to be returning the One Ring to Mordor in order to prevent the Dark Lord from conquering the world. Dirsa, you use the word epic a lot. I don't think a campaign has to be epic, so I think maybe we're talking about different things.

Well, when people start talking about 2 year campaigns that involve multiple player groups and about half the DMs we have now, I'd say it has to be somewhat epic. Sounds fun. It also sounds unfeasible though.

[Keryn]

We can have epic plot when we have epic PCs... The number of Pcs over 10th lvl is very low and I believe those in that level range sort of feel that the challenge starts to lack. Balanced parties is in the end a very important aspect of a successful campaign.

On other hand for something to be meaningful it doesn't need to be epic, just to give some sort of accomplishment to the PCs working in the plot.

One thing that has been proved to me over and over though is the number of PCs involved in a single session. More and more i believe over 5 PCs it is very hard for the DM and for the players to take a real part in the session, and not just be a corpse that follows the events. As in everything the experience both of the DM and the players will play a major factor.

It is good though that we still have people with ideas and able to push a little bit to see some changes happening. After failures, and meeting the same barriers over and over, that energy seems to fade, and it is with fresh blood that we see some issues raised once again and we gain hope that somethings can change, even if slowly.

Keep it up folks and its xmas after all