Crafting with Special Materials

[mogonk]

If you want to craft something and we determine it takes X days, then it will be ready on the Xth day after the process started. I'm not interested in calculating time adventuring vs time at the forge. So adventure away while you build that adamantine full plate, gonna finish just as fast as the smith anchored to his forge.

Time is such an abstraction in ALFA.

Yes, and everything you have ever written about your thoughts on crafting strikes me as very sensible. But you aren't the only DM around, and the majority use a different approach. Going to your server just to craft items is waaay too meta...so, yeah.

My thoughts? I have a few, most of which I've hinted at already.

1. Calculate special materials exactly as if they were an enchantment.

In other words, determine all relevant aspects of the crafting by mundane rules (1/3 retail price in materials, craft time, etc.), as if it were a MW item, and then determine the special material portion as if it were a magical item for which the crafter has the appropriate feat (1/2 retail price in materials, automatic 1000gp worth of progress per day, 1/25th retail value in XP cost).

Adamantine shortsword. Total cost 3020. Total cost of a masterwork shortsword: 320. So you would act as if crafting a masterwork shortsword, then act as if you were creating a magic item worth 2700gp (the difference in cost between the two).

Total craft time for a crafter with a bonus of +20: 7 days. Total cost: 1457gp, 108xp.

2. Don't factor special materials into the total price for the purpose of craft times.

For purposes of craft times, treat it as if it were a mundane material. It would be very easy to limit special material use through existing mechanisms like having to find raw materials or instruction in the required crafting techniques.

3. Don't require the PC to abstain from adventuring during the crafting process.

Self explanatory.


I'm very fond of #1. It's hard to argue that anything that requires more money AND expenditure of xp would be unbalancing, and it makes craft times much more reasonable. Any of them would work better than the status quo.

[JaydeMoon]

Going to your server just to craft items is waaay too meta...so, yeah.

Psssst... Don't tell anyone, but...

I DM on ALL the servers...

[danielmn]

Going to your server just to craft items is waaay too meta...so, yeah.

Psssst... Don't tell anyone, but...

I DM on ALL the servers...

[mogonk]

Going to your server just to craft items is waaay too meta...so, yeah.

Psssst... Don't tell anyone, but...

I DM on ALL the servers...

Well....ok then.

That's pretty much /thread.

[Mirabai]

I'm pretty much of the same mind as Jayde on this, and we follow the same crafting guidelines which, btw, are posted here

[danielmn]

Lack of NPC's with the knowledge to work those special materials. I'm sure every PGer and their mother would prefer every single armour and weapon smith to have the knowledge to craft any and all special materials....but that kind of logic makes me sick to my stomach.

Ok...but that sickening kind of logic is actually used by the PnP system that we're basing all of this on. By RAW, any PC who can craft a masterwork sword can make a masterwork sword out of adamantine, or mithral, or darksteel, or dragonfang. Metal is metal, it requires no special knowledge. That's the system.

Yeah, the rules are pretty flimsy as far as that is concerned. To say that a smith whose only EVER used iron can automatically forge mithril, without any new knowledge gained or specified training, to me is a dumbing down of the actual processes of metalurgy. To claim that the same method works for every metal is beyond a scratching of the head, let alone those materials that aren't even metal or are enhanced with magics, such as gold and silver or alloys such as alchemical silver. That, I would say, is definately breaking in immersion for my own play style...but so is taking skill points in a skill a PC has no experience with IG or skill points in a skill not even used during that level, but that's a complete and other topic in and of itself. I err on the side of imerrsion vrs. the dumbing down and simplifying of rules, but that's just me. In abiding by the RAW, PNP rules of crafting we are apt to loose a lot of the rich, rp material ALFA is known for, such as the pride and distinguishment of having learned how to craft with a special material such as adamantium.

[Curmudgeon]

Please bear in mind there are many factors that govern the availability of special materials. And by canon the knowledge needed to craft these materials is limited to very few, and most of those few are extremely protective of their "trade secrets" and most unwilling to teach them to PCs without good IC reason.

While TSM is a major trade center in the North, I abhor the "Walmart mentality" of players who insist that every item they might want to have to pump up their PC should be available at any time they have the GP to pay for it.

The decision to play a crafter PC should require a willingness to make a substantial investment in the time and RP involved - your smith should be spending time at the forge, practicing her craft, rather than running around and adventuring. We have had a few such PCs over the history of the current incarnation of TSM, and all of them spent time in game RPing their craftwork.

Finally, the economics of the system mean that the PC crafter will not be getting rich from making items and selling them to shops. The intent here is to encourage RP with other players.

[Veilan]

I abhor the "Walmart mentality" of players who insist that every item they might want to have to pump up their PC should be available at any time they have the GP to pay for it.

Let me requote this for emphasis, and add: In fact, our Wealth Standards run based on the very assumption that gear is not customisable at will for any PC.

This, in turn, meant we were not very stingy: ALFA's wealth allowance, as opposed to all the naysaying and false accusations how hard-ass we are, are 30% higher than PnP's. Yes, that is right - an average wealth ALFAn is far more wealthy than an average-wealth PnP character (of course, how many ALFA characters actually hold average wealth fluctuates).

This is not so we can each try to kit our our character to the maximum effect and immediately translate gold into power at will, this is so that you are not punished for lugging around both that +1 magical sword and that masterwork bastard sword that you specialised in.

Should the facts on the ground change, due to either DM practice or PC crafting, and present a convincing picture that gear, in fact, is fully customisable for each of a character's body slots, then there will be no hesitation to change our Wealth Standards to match PnP.

Personally, I find it more interesting to have the power in the hands of discerning and skeptical DM hands (Jayde used to be a master of this, for instance - his items always told a story, and were not even that powerful, yet usually grew to be a part of the character) - and enjoy that this encourages them to provide interesting, instead of all-powerful items. It also increases my own sense of joy when I do get something my character might need, and makes it all the more worthwhile.

Of course, if this is no longer ALFA's preference, we can adapt - it is a question of taste rather than right and wrong.

Cheers,

[Keryn]

I have mixed feelings about this...

I totally agree with those who defend special materials need special crafting processes, and should be mastered IG through RP, plots, sessions, adventure, seeking the knowledge etc... This only furthers the plot and opens doors for more RP. It also gives meaning to the investment made by the PC in terms of skills and RP devoted to the craft. Being recognised as the one to look for, for a special craft is amazing it builds the Pc reputation and gives him more then just something visible, be it XP, or gold... For most I'd say seeing your PC recognized as good in something is much more rewarding.

Now on the other side... I play a crafter, or I tried to... I made a significant investment in crafting skills, and devoted a quite sometime into RP learning how to craft some special material. Unfortunately, the time required to make Bows is insane, when the shops seem to have those same weapons for sale, readily available. Which simply makes my investment useless, it happened more then once a PC ask my PC to craft him a bow, and a few days latter apologize because he simply bought it in Silvy or whatever. The time i take to make a weapon is ridiculous... and I cannot walk around with a portable store. It is a tricky matter...

And since we are at it.. I'll drop another question. Does it make any sense that some special materials increase the value of an item for insane amounts when in fact said material adds nothing to the item?

I mean I can understand, why adamantine is expensive or mithril, or duskwood for armors due to the properties and benefits they add to the item and the PC, but cannot understand why to make a duskwood bow, it gets the price raised on +900gp being a double handed weapon, when duskwood adds nothing to the weapon other then RP value... I mean it isn't certainly the weight loss in an item of 2 lbs that is worth the cost... To me the price increase was to pay for the special attributes the material adds... And I understand this is yet another tricky situation.

[t-ice]

cannot understand why to make a duskwood bow, it gets the price raised on +900gp being a double handed weapon, when duskwood adds nothing to the weapon other then RP value... I mean it isn't certainly the weight loss in an item of 2 lbs that is worth the cost... To me the price increase was to pay for the special attributes the material adds

If the mechanics states that a duskwood bow is insanely powerless for the price, then it probably means it's an odd weapon to have or create, and probably very few exist. It just means duskwood for that purpose is a waste of valuable material to something it isn't good for. Just like, say, a mithral sword. It certainly isn't believable that a material is somehow less expensive when used for a purpose it doesn't fit (i.e. yield a bonus) in.

[mogonk]

It certainly isn't believable that a material is somehow less expensive when used for a purpose it doesn't fit (i.e. yield a bonus) in.

That's very true. For crafting purposes, it wouldn't make sense for the cost of the raw materials to be reduced based on their intended use. On the other hand, it is believable that the resale value of the completed item might be different from the value in the SRD.

Let's use the mithral sword example. To make a mithral short sword, you use around 334gp worth of mithral. The end product is mechanically almost identical to a normal MW short sword, which is worth 320gp. Yet by RAW, the market value of the sword is 1020gp. Makes no sense. Nobody would buy that. Simple market forces would drive the price down well below that. How far it would go down would depend on a variety of factors: the current supply of mithral swords, social status associated with use of mithral weaponry, etc.

Of course, you would have to be crazy to make a weapon out of mithral, since in many cases the cost of raw materials exceeds the real worth of the item you wind up with. And yet, isn't mithral weaponry part of the lore? I'm no FR expert, but I think it is.

[Blindhamsterman]

*begins making plans for a mithril rapier*

[Veilan]

*begins making plans for a mithril rapier*

It's light, it's stylish, it's valuable - perfect example for a treasure item.

[t-ice]

I think you mean "art object"

But Mongonk has a point in that finding an appropriate buyer for a high-grade art object, and the price you fetch for it, can serve as a mini-quest in itself. Really upto the DM and the players, who can always fence it to the nearest NPC that offers something.

[Blindhamsterman]

*begins making plans for a mithril rapier*

It's light, it's stylish, it's valuable - perfect example for a treasure item.

FYI, I was actually being serious, to me it makes total sense that a Sun Elf would desire to craft such, like dwarves they are well known for working with Mithril (and Glass-steel which in 3.5 has the same properties)

Just need to find me some Mithril to work with