Buyback

Ideas and suggestions for game mechanics and rules.
Mikayla
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Post by Mikayla »

Mayhem:
Can shops monitor their stock, and include it in buyback equations?

If we set a nominal stock level of, say, 50 items, then the buyback rate can be (50-current stock of that item) %

So, when you come to sell a longsword to a merchant who currently has none is stock, you'd get 50% value. (assuming the merchant is interested in buying swords)

If he has 10 longswords in stock, he would only offer (50-10=)40% value.

If everyone has been to the orc-caves today and come back with a half dozen long swords, and he now has 40 in stock, he will only offer (50-40=) 10% value.

We could tweak the actual figures - nominal stock of 25, 2% each for example.
This seems brilliant, if merchant's stock is periodically depleted (would this happen at server reset?) to represent all those non-PCs buying gear. I read Veilan's thoughts on the matter, and while this might present a slight disadvantage to the casual player, it would nevertheless be a very realistic and interesting way to deal with the problem.

Gems as a second currency: fully support it.

Appraise vs. Diplomacy: Again I think Mayhem is correct; Diplomacy seems the more appropriate skill for haggling though Appraise is important to (difficult to negotiate well if you cannot tell how much the item being haggled over is worth). I don't have a really good suggestion here though - wish I did. Perhaps use an average of both Appraise and Diplomacy for the negotiation roll?
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Magonushi
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Post by Magonushi »

I like the idea of using diplomacy in haggling but if only one skill is to be checked for interacting with merchants it really should be appraise. You can be the best silver tongue in the world but suck at haggling, because you estimate that (apparently) glass gem you're carrying to be worth 10 gold max, when it is in fact an exquisite diamond at least 1000 times more valuable.
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Post by Veilan »

Diplomacy already is overall the more useful skill to have, it seems unadvisable to bolster its importance while further making appraise redundant; from a purely mechanical point of view.
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Magonushi
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Post by Magonushi »

I have never once used diplomacy in ALFA. It is worthless in CvC as opposed to intimidate and bluff which are moderately useful with a DM moderating, and I have never had a DM ask for a Diplomacy roll for influencing an NPC. Bluff get's used all the time, Intimidate quite a bit, and appraise even gets some show time when brokering a non-standard trade deal. Heck the times I was doing something that definately should have been a diplomacy roll, the DM instead asked for a performance check.
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dergon darkhelm
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Post by dergon darkhelm »

Complete Adventurer is the first introduction of skill use to bargain for prices. Here's what it says...
Haggle: You can use the Diplomacy skill to bargain for goods or services, including those of magical nature. When discussing the sale of an item or service, you can attemp to lower the asking price with a Diplomacy check made to influence NPC attitudes (see the sidebar on page 72 of the Player's Handbook). If you manage to adjust the vendor's attitude to helpful (most vendor's begin as indifferent), the vendor lowers the asking price by 10%. Add the vendor's Diplomacy check modifier to the DC needed to achieve the result. For example, to adjust the attitude of an indifferent vendor with a Diplomacy modifier of +3 to friendly, you must achieve a result of 33 or higher on your Diplomacy check (a base chance of 30, +3 for target's Diplomacy modifier). If you worsen the vendor's attitude, the vendor refuses to sell anything to you at this time. The DM is the final arbiter of any sale of goods and should discourage abuse of this option if it is slowing the game down too much.

Action: Haggling requires at least 1 full minute, as normal for a Diplomacy check.

Try Again: You can't retry a Diplomacy check to haggle.


that was spider talking about it in this thread:

http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... ght=haggle
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Post by AcadiusLost »

Magonushi wrote:I have never once used diplomacy in ALFA.
Mileage varies. I frequently used persuade (as a NWN1 equivalent to diplomacy) via a variety of DMs in NWN1 ALFA, and called for a number of persuade checks from quite a few players when I DM'ed. Then again, I played a PC who actually was a diplomat IC for a while, and favored social interaction-based plots as a DM. Perhaps you've been playing PCs more prone to bluff/intimidate?
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Post by Brokenbone »

WOTC around April Fool's wrote: Page 71-72 – Diplomacy [Substitution]
Replace text with “Roll for initiative.”

Page 74 – Forgery [Substitution]
Replace text with “You actually trained in this skill? Well, roll for initiative.”

Page 74 – Gather Information [Substitution]
Replace text with “Roll for initiative.”

Page 81 – Sense Motive [Substitution]
Replace text with “Roll for initiative.”
Actually the main good point I picked up from the last few points is that Appraisal is an assessment, Diplomacy is for haggling. If you stink at either, you are going to get the short end of the stick (i.e., trade a cow for apparently magic beans out of either ignorance, or that's the best your silver tongue can manage even knowing the relative values).

Perhaps tie merchants and how they adjust buy / sell %, to diplomacy.

Perhaps give PCs a wonderful widget or wand which they can target items with, a secret appraise roll is made and the results reported to the PC. Once only per item, no way to click an item 500 times and try to average out a price. Something like a message sent to the PC telling the toolset value of an item, plus or minus some variable amount, depending on how good or poor the secret roll might have been.

How handy for mundane everyday items, don't know ("You estimate this longsword to be worth 28gp"), as people are probably OOCly / meta familiar with many normal objects' prices, like arms and armor. However if you find a gem, art object, a magic miscellaneous item, or something not easily valued at a glance, whole different story. DM can know darn well that a pretty jade comb is worth 40gp and a pot-bellied little goblin statue is worth 50gp, and a pearl worth 100gp, but PCs have no line of sight to that until they show each item to a merchant, usually. Yes people can memorize gem values (hint: diamond is always 1st place, or tied for 1st), but having a bunch of PCs eyeball an item in order to figure out worth isn't a bad thing.

Bringing it to a merchant though, maybe the buyback is based on the lesser of a diplomacy-roll influenced choice of (1) true market value, or (2) value PC believes item has. In order to help make that choice, any time a PC uses his "appraise widget thingy" on an item, apply an INT like "(PCNAME)_APPRAISED" for the merchant NPC to notice in a conversation tree. So a violin with a "true" value of 100gp, and an "appraised" value of 85gp, you make a diplomacy check haggle with the merchant to try to grind your way up or down from call it 50% of 85gp. I.e., you believe in that price, so you try to talk the merchant up based on that knowledge, as opposed to the 100gp figure. The situation where a violin was still "true" 100gp, appraised at 150gp, you're haggling your way up/down from 50% of 100gp rather than 150gp, as the high figure would be unsupportable to the professional merchant.

...

Maybe the above though is a pipe dream, nice brainstorm but implementation = not insignificant effort!

I think it was in talking to AL the other day about a potion shop in NWN1 Arabel (possibly one of Zelknolf's?) that I had a good memory of server messages during dialogue either praising or deriding your PCs knowledge or personality in talking about how much or little you were in a position to influence bargains. Something like "your knowledge about the products serves you well, but you are unable to sway her much on pricing", or "if you knew more about the products, you'd probably be able to better persuade her." Apologies to the author of the actual messages, I am paraphrasing, and also extrapolating what MAY be making those messages appear (i.e., the checks are surely in a script well hidden from me!)
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Magonushi
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Post by Magonushi »

I also wonder if diplomacy is the only social skill to roll for haggling. There are plenty of salesmen who use bluff more than diplomacy IRL and plenty of customers who use threats to bargain their way into a good deal.
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JaydeMoon
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Post by JaydeMoon »

I actually brought up Appraise, persuade, intimidate as useful in merchant buyback encounters in Standards not long ago.

It's currently sitting there without any actual resolution.

I can see how setting up intimidate reactions could be draining on our already taxed resources (is the shopkeeper even intimidatable? Do we allow you to roll intimidate when you the guy has a guard? 5 guards? A golem guard? If you fail an intimidate roll, do the guards attack you? Does the shopkeeper just ask you to leave? Does the shopkeeper remember that you tried to intimidate him last time and thus won't do business with you? Or does business but price gouges you? etc).

It would be cool to have, but is it feasible to get all of that in, for every shopkeeper?

Appraise is best for stuff that's less standard, like art and gems. While BB is correct that diamond is #1, one thing not accounted for is size of diamond, clarity of diamond, etc.

So we can make several diamonds and have them at values ranging from 500 to 10000. Flub an appraise roll and you'll be parting with an exquisitely cut, clear gem for a pittance. Conversely, you might be trying to hawk a flawed gem for far more than any broker in his right mind feels it is worth.
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Kest
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Post by Kest »

JaydeMoon wrote:I can see how setting up intimidate reactions could be draining on our already taxed resources (is the shopkeeper even intimidatable? Do we allow you to roll intimidate when you the guy has a guard? 5 guards? A golem guard? If you fail an intimidate roll, do the guards attack you? Does the shopkeeper just ask you to leave? Does the shopkeeper remember that you tried to intimidate him last time and thus won't do business with you? Or does business but price gouges you? etc).

It would be cool to have, but is it feasible to get all of that in, for every shopkeeper?
Could make generic merchant reactions and then alter them... right? (Timid, Guarded, Confident, Arrogant, Wicked, Wandering, Fence)
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Post by Brokenbone »

Again though, others side of the coin is that NWN1/2 merchants are an abstraction. One dude in a store with enough arms and armor to outfit a legion, and instantly too... prêt-à-porter. You do not bother representing his ten NPC associates / guards just like you don't bother representing 100,000 NPC citizens in a metropolis. It'd be a builder nightmare.

Maybe the rare merchant would have his/her operation tooled out to the nth degree of detail, but that would definitely be exceptional. Here's his guards, here's his gophers, here's where he keeps his cashbox, here is the cabinet with his infinite supply of shortswords, cure lights and backpacks, etc. It might perhaps be those where you'd get into complex dialogue trees with ten different methods of prodding for a better, more realistic deal.

...

Still, we aren't exactly playing monopoly here, the occasional trade deal RP can be fun (with other PCs or DM'd NPCs), but doing an economic simulation via scripting may be misplaced effort. Yay, smart bargainers get 5% richer, crappy bargainers get 5% poorer... big deal. Focus on statics, dungeons, adventurey situations instead, people will have more fun with that. Having four PCs stand around a merchant, each trying their luck for the "best price", waste of time for limited payout. Or worse, OOCly waiting around after a known-to-be-poor roll for a despawn or reset to "ICly" (yeah right) try again when the shopkeeper's feeling a little hungrier for business (i.e., try luck again on a poor roll).
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AcadiusLost
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Post by AcadiusLost »

Similarly, if using a scripted system, one could choose a posture: Polite/diplomacy, forceful/intimidate, deceptive/bluff. Could switch modes with a PC tools button, as most PCs are likely to pick one style and stick with it. Tie all of the above into appraise as well, to keep value in the traditional store skill of NWN2 and force diversification for maximum benefit.

I'd also include a persistent reputation aspect- if you badly botch one of these rolls, they're likely to remember.
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Post by Mayhem »

Veilan wrote:Diplomacy already is overall the more useful skill to have, it seems unadvisable to bolster its importance while further making appraise redundant; from a purely mechanical point of view.
In the single player campaign, its great. As soon as a DM gets involve, this tends to go out the window as they go by the eloquence of the player rather than the eloquence of the character, no matter what the differences between.
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