Meeting Minutes - 2007/02/09

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:03 pm

Yes. And should Obsidian ever add the contents of {} to the DM creator tool, we can drop our custom version very simply. We're not committing to a "point of no return" by adopting a custom GUI at this stage, although if GUI/script interactions improve as promised, we'll likely always get more mileage from a custom version.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:08 pm

Then I am struggling to come up with arguments against a GUI; moreover, there would seem to potentially be other benefits from having an ALFA DM GUI such as integrating ALFA tools and reference material.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:27 pm

Yes, very much so. I think reference materials would be extremely useful integrated as part of the DM user interface. DM tools like DMFI have already been implemented through GUIs, and I expect that we'll adopt them (that's been the plan anyway).

While the imagination may well be beyond the limit, we can definitely do a lot of interesting things with GUIs. It's certainly worth thinking about and experimenting with. And if we have talented artists around, an ALFA skin for these GUIs might just be a nice touch.

Souvarine · Post by **Souvarine** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:32 pm

So just to know if i am supposed to go into frenzy
or if i am to dance happily...
What will the players see?

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:28 pm

Players? Pfft, who cares?

What the players see will be determined by what we can make work best for DMs. With Obsidian fixes or a working GUI, that will be little; without those, the players will see lots. Uh, of meta.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:53 pm

Whatever we want them to see. If we reveal absolutely nothing where the creature and/or equipment models are distinct, then we will need to provide a learning mechanism for players to determine this (perform a knowledge check). A new option on the right-click context menu can fire the requisite skill check script (Identify or Identify Creature), but we'll need to accommodate this with proper conventions in the blueprints as well (to state the obvious).

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:39 pm

Here's a somewhat polished sample of a custom DM Creator GUI:

I'm looking into what it would take to popup the creature examine GUI from the DM Creator GUI. At a minimum, you need to have a spawned object targetted to pull up that GUI so it would require some simulation with scripts, if the targetting functions are accessible.

Final comments anyone? Halrin? Where art thou?

Audark · Post by **Audark** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:58 am

My concerns are simply DM ease of use as I see that as the priority, not the protection of what is in my opinion, very small amounts of meta.

The GUI looks good, and as long as DMs have access to Race, Class, Gender and CR in the custom GUI then things should work fine.

As for what the player sees, I could really care less, my argument was simply based on the fact that we NEED to make the DMs job easy. Making their job easy makes for an easier time telling the story of ALFA and that is the ultimate goal. Anything that can be done to facilitate DMs needs to be done and this approach, as far as I understand it, seems to accomplish that.

I've never wanted players to see meta, it's just that if the choice is between DMs getting the info they need at the expense of meta going to players and players seeing no meta at the expense of DMs ease of use, the choice MUST always go to making things easy for the DMs.

Afterall a DM spawning a 'Human Male Fighter' is less jarring in the long run than a DM hitting pause and spending 15 minutes searching for the NPC he wants.

Looks like a working plan Cipher

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:42 am

Thanks Halrin. I've got what I think is a robust custom GUI at this point which not only allows us to populate whatever details we want on the DM creator interface, but also allows DMs to view a creature's entire character sheet from the DM creator by simply right clicking. We can hook in reference materials as well when/if we have a better idea of what that is and how it pertains to individual creatures.

I'd like to setup a quick demo Monday or Tuesday to get some feedback on the interface from DMs. Also, Fionn has graciously agreed to look into developing a toolset plugin that will simplify the creation of the XML, using our palette and an XML template to generate the proper output. Hopefully, it'll be possible, if not easy to do. Keep your fingers crossed and send him some pie.

I think we can now finalize creature standards and resume creation of blueprints.

Souvarine · Post by **Souvarine** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:17 pm

ç i p h é r wrote:Whatever we want them to see. If we reveal absolutely nothing where the creature and/or equipment models are distinct, then we will need to provide a learning mechanism for players to determine this (perform a knowledge check). A new option on the right-click context menu can fire the requisite skill check script (Identify or Identify Creature), but we'll need to accommodate this with proper conventions in the blueprints as well (to state the obvious).

Not sure i understand the point of a skill to auto-identify creatures...they will be there i mean it's not like colored cubes will come charging and you have to guess they are orcs or dragons.

If you have no idea what the creature is, ask the local population?

The only situation that such skill would be valid, imo, is when the player doesn't know and his character should...but, wait a minute...

What character in the FR's know more than a player at lvl 1?

By the time your character should know about the local monstruosities, the player will have learned too if he didn't know already. Sure, if he move to a whole other country, then he'll be at a loss at the local fauna...just like a real person? bingo

mmm

In any case, i am all for 0 meta concerning names. None. And don't start me on the importance of players...trust me.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:59 am

Souvarine wrote:If you have no idea what the creature is, ask the local population?

Well that's one way and a library is another, but it'll be hard to put words to images and not the best way to convey this information to a player. The "Identify" option would just be a way for a player to ask "do I know what that creature is", much like in a typical PnP setting, and if so, report what it is. D&D gives us "knowledge" skills for this purpose and players that invest in knowledge skills will be more "knowledgeable" about the things they find in the world. Assume that the skill point investments mean the player has done more than their fair share of studying and/or asking around.

All I was trying to point out is that we need to build into the interface a way for a player to tell what their character knows. Normally, the little floaty text conveys the information and players eventually learn by sight what their characters have encountered, but w/o those floaty text names, they'll be unable to make any sort of visual association with creatures they encounter.

Souvarine · Post by **Souvarine** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:55 pm

It's up to you obviously, although as an exercise, just pick 2 random blueprints from the same category and pit them in an arena...you'll find similarities just by looking at them...it's easy.

I wasn't so adamant on the naming stuff before i made the blueprints, but once i did, it was clear to me. The visual graphics gives everything you need and want as a player. With practice, you'll learn that (example) goblin rogues in your region use X weapon, so when you'll spot that...you'll have a clue that someone else who has not faced goblins as much shouldn't know.

If the knowledge skill give only the race, then i'll be ok...but it should never give the class away, no amount of research should give that out (especially for races like humans).

Special Case: The Ogre mage is a particular case in which i might lack the lore from the FRs to judge correctly. The race is called Ogre Mage, but sadly it also gives out instantly what the ogre can do...which shouldn't be specifically obvious at first glance. Actually, isn't the whole point of the ogre mage race to surprise the players who expect that everything big and stupid-looking is a dumb fighter-class?

All in all, i feel that we are all going in the same direction, which is a good indication for me.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:03 pm

Ogre magi are like Blue or Green and Horned with Mad Eyes and Crazéd Hair. Any fule knows one when seen (innate invisibility allowing); or, at least, to run. They're the best example of something to recognise from a different model... and if we didn't have the proper model, you'd have to label it...

Souvarine · Post by **Souvarine** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:11 pm

someone with such precise knowledge will recognise the monster (blue green with horns...etc.), it's rather obvious for those who know d&d well enough, but obviously not every character should know that the blue green giant half-demon thing in front of them is in fact an Ogre Mage.

it'perhaps the only one particular case where his class fits along with his race name.

Keep this in mind when you encounter the undead, especially your typical zombie or skeleton: there are very few hints at which type of zombie or skeleton you are facing. As always, the weapons and other visual trappings might hint at what it is, but they are no surefire identification cards ( a skeleton archer could be armed in the same manner than a skeleton ranger, for example). Undeads should not be your farmothon targets from now on.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:12 pm

It's gonna be real hard to DM if every creature just has "A creature" as its name.