Able learner revisited

Khazar Stoneblood · Post by **Khazar Stoneblood** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:04 pm

I'd argue that 6 skillpoints a level vs. 8 skill points a level is a minor difference in terms of skills. A thief (in my mind) is just about as good as he can be with maxed out disable device, open lock, hide, move silently, pick pockets and search. Some other skills might have minor usefullness (like appraise for selling stolen goods or bluff/diplomacy for getting out of trouble when caught) but they aren't as directly related to what a thief is... that is stealing stuff from other people or from their dwellings. Note... I'm not saying better ROGUE... I'm saying better THIEF. There are other useful rogue skills like tumble or spot/listen... but in terms of actually thieving things from others they don't really paly a role. The 6 skill points a ranger gets are more than enough to max out actual thieving skills and still have some left over for other things with a decent INT score.

Sneak attack is a combat skill. It requires stealth to use, but it still only applies in combat. It's much more of an assassin ability than something used by a pure thief.

The extra feat is nice... but the flip side of that is the bonus toughness feat at level 3 for ranger. Most of my PC's in Alfa choose toughness at some point (many times third level), simply because it helps a great deal in terms of survivability. For me (and many others I imagine) taking Able Learner will be off-set by getting toughness for free with the ranger levels... as they'd spend a feat on that as a pure rogue anyway. If you did take something like stealthy or skill focus/disable device it would be correct.

I'd still wager my halfling rogue-1/ranger-x would be as capable or better a thief than a straight rogue-x of the same total level. And as you said, he'd also be a much better fighter. The only thing the pure rogue would be better at is assassination, and possibly a couple of points better in a single thief skill due to a feat spent on focus.

fade · Post by **fade** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:52 am

A human Rogue w/ 16 int barely is able to max all the rogue important skills.

Hide
MS
Spot
Listen
Search
Disable Device
Set Trap
UMD
Tumble
Parry
Sleight of Hand

I really wouldn't be worried about a 1 rogue / x fighter being able to compete with a rogue as a class monkey. What it -does- allow is give x rogue / x fighters a bit more lenency with their skills, or a rogue / dualist etc etc etc.

Personally if I played a rogue, as in a true rogue, I would go at minimum 8 levels before multiclassing, from an optimization standpoint. You just need 10-11 ranks in skills before you can think about specializing them.

It should be 1st level only though. Other than that it works fine, and I wouldn't even be worried about making it 1st level only.

Veilan · Post by **Veilan** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:32 am

Khazar Stoneblood wrote:Sneak attack/evasion are nice

Eh?

Rangers get evasion, as well as hide in plain sight in the wilds. Okay, the latter one may be out of scale, but still.

Real goodie on a rogue is the uncanny dodge, which was a life-saver in NWN 1 where dex bonus to AC was negated on every occasion imaginable and basically always if you fought more than 1 mob.

Anyhow, the problem is not the feat itself, just what people end up doing with it - killing mobs isn't a problem either, just people powergaming is.

It would depend on what level 1 feats we allow, but I would consider this feat balanced enough against stuff like mind over matter. This feat is only really useful picked on level 1 anyway since you can't haul over more than 5 skillpoints anymore, however the balancing comes in as that you are not able to pick more than one of the über feats.

Til then, my whole intention was merely to make everyone aware of the super PG builds possible and get their mouths all watery and have their saliva dripping off their chin considering they won't have to get those 2 levels of shadowdancer anymore and thus avoid the PrC prudence. Or something. Whutev.

Good night.

fade · Post by **fade** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:49 am

To bad skill based builds arent PGish. That is spell based builds. Wonder if true strike is verbal only in NWN2 still. Huzzah!

Veilan · Post by **Veilan** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:47 pm

Certainly, sneaking through closed doors and exploiting the NWN 1 trap system isn't PGing of course, or having tumble and UMD as class skill always. It's just proper roleplay, eh. Then again so is taking an illusionist level early on and lucking out that the SoU and HotU expansion actually bring you useful spells

. Might want to research before trying to give stray shots.

As I noted earlier, no build, feat, skill or spell in itself is "PG", it's how you use it, why you take it and whether you rationalize RP for power gain and in what fashion you do.

On a sidenote...

True strike is somatic as well as verbal in NWN 2, I just checked since you made me curious. It would merit a different thread in any case, and last I checked due to its restriction of not being able to be used combined with special attacks it isn't too powerful anyhow. Haven't checked that in NWN 2 yet.

Khazar Stoneblood · Post by **Khazar Stoneblood** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:56 pm

fade wrote:A human Rogue w/ 16 int barely is able to max all the rogue important skills.

Hide
MS
Spot
Listen
Search
Disable Device
Set Trap
UMD
Tumble
Parry
Sleight of Hand
.

Well, I would classify parry and tumble as combat skills. While they are nice for a true rogue, they are pretty much solely the realm of combat, so the added combat benefits of a ranger or fighter far outweigh their effects (in my opinion). Set trap is also combat/assassination focused. UMD in the OC is very useful, but in ALFA it really isn't. You have to put so many skill points in it before you can reliably cast a level 1 scroll that it just makes more sense to take a level of wizard or sorceror if you really want to use that ability.

That leaves you with:
spot
hide
move silently
sleight of hand
search
listen
disable device
open lock

Sleight of hand is not incredibly useful to an adventuring PC. It's good if you are a pick pocket or are stealing a key, but for a PC primarily adventuring it's less useful. And you really only need listen or spot maxed. Both is overkill (at least the way I understand listen and spot to work in NWN).

So, that leaves:
spot or listen
hide
move silently
search
disable device
open lock

A rogue-1/ranger-x with 14 INT will have 8 skillpoints a level, 9 if they are human. That could get them 6 skills listed above, along with 2-3 others (like tumble/set trap/parry for more of a combat focus or sleight of hand/bluff for a "sneakier" forcus). But from filling the roles in a party that a rogue fills (scouting/trap handling/opening locks) the rogue-1/ranger-x would be just as good and be a far better combatant.

My argument was that a rogue-1/ranger-x could handle all non-combat rogue party roles and be better in combat, and a rogue-1/fighter-x could handle non-stealth/non-combat rogue party roles and be better in combat.

Again... I am NOT saying this is unbalancing. I don't have an opinion on it really. I AM saying that it is a highly effective class combo with the able learner feat that others may have a problem with, and I want to point it out NOW instead of getting hammered by people later who think I PG'd my PC build and should be banned.

(because my rogue/ranger halfling is going to happen one way or another... but if Able Learner is in for a halfling it will be rougue-1/ranger-x instead of a more even split.)

fade · Post by **fade** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:38 pm

Except a rogue heavy build can kill non-crit immune enemies in about, oh, 1-2 rounds thanks to sneak attack. Rangers can't.

If I play a skill monkey, it would be a rogue, probaly with able learner, and a few levels of fighter or ranger. Not rogue 1 / whatever x. But that is my opinion. The fact that there is a difference of opinion shows that the feat is probaly fine as is, and at most should be made a level 1 feat only.

And you WANT both spot and listen maxed. You lose about a 50% success rate if you use only 1.

And actually I didn't have a problem with sneaking through closed doors and the like in NWN1, least when true sight was able to see rogues. And traps were hardly the worst thing to happen in NWN1. Sure if you were a smart player you could kill about anything. But with say a cleric, you could be a pretty dumb player and still kill about anything.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:41 am

I think the use of this feat seems balanced enough when considering most builds. Most things just don't have the amount of skill points that a rogue does. who cares if the fighter has all his skill points in tumble and search instead of dicipline. So his AC gets to be a bit higher and he is less likely to step on traps. It cost him a feat and he's now lying on the floor every time he fights an orc chieftian. It's just an example but all it does is allow a character to customise a build more at the cost of a feat.

I see the only thing considerable as an abuse is the person who takes level 1 rogue then goes all something else so that they can max up a skill better. Again still, I don't think it's going to overly uber anyone up and really to get more skillpoints to spend on all those skills you can max out and to not be XP penalised for being level one rogue and more then 2 levels higher with another class, you got to play a straight human. Perhaps this would be a good thing as it would be a draw for more people to play a human rather then all these fancy new ECL races and elves.

And why couldn't we have had werewolves and vampires instead of stupid genasii, aasimarz and tiefloids.

I'd love to see the piles of dust where the vampires logged on in the open during the wrong time of day. Lol, i digress....

I don't think this feat actually gives you as much beefing up as people are being paranoid over.

If you want a character that has max on the full complement of roguish skills it's got to be a straight rogue still. Even with multiclass ones it's hard to max everything out due to the lower skill points available on your non rogue levels.

Fear not players of rogues. The Classical D&D thief is never going to die that easy. Besides there are a bunch of skills expensive for the rogue to take that would be really nifty if you took this feat.

Concentration
Discipline
Spellcraft
Taunt
Perform

Will all be cheaper on your vast quantity of skill points to the rogue if you have this feat.

No more spending 10 skillpoints on perform just to take shadow dancer. No more sneak attacking then getting knockdowned by boss spawns, cos you got loads of discipline now. Taunt... with all that talk about how sneak attacking works so nice on flanking, we all want a pure rogue with taunt skill flanking for us, dropping that buggers AC down.

The pure rogue is the character that could benefit most from this feat in my opinion.

Dorn · Post by **Dorn** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:26 am

If a fully armoured tank who has power build (because thats what it is really) to achieve what is being identified above (ie rogue1/ftrx) and this tank tries to disarm a trap regardless of skill....

The DM should set the trap off on him and say 'wearing gauntlets means you cant take 20' or something....after the trap goes off.

If able learner is used to min/max/exploit which is being mentioned above in not so many words, then said player should get spanked by the DM. Simple:)

If the feat is being used to enhance RP then it's all good.

Good thing about alfa is its not just player vs world, it's player vs world+intelligent supergod(DM)

As an aside sneak attack is still stupid. A rogue 10 being able to do more damage with a knife to an unprotected back than a fighter or barb 10 with a huge sword is silly...silly dnd game designers

Magonushi · Post by **Magonushi** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:11 am

Dorn I hope you never DM me. Just because someone does a fighter/rogue build with disable traps does not make them a PGer. I was thinking of doing the same thing with a strategist/gamer who enjoyed mechanical puzzles like rebuilding a clock, figuring out a rubix cube, or disarming a trap.

There are plently of things that can be abused in NWN2. Like say playing a priest without actually praying, being faithful, etc. Does that mean we should take out the class because it has potential to be abused in terms of RP?

If someone abuses it deal with it on a case by case basis. It's a feat that gives up quite a bit for not that much, and I see far more opportunity to enhance RP from using it than potential to destroy RP. But then again I generally trust ALFAans to be here to be more interested in RP than PGing.

Let's not hamper the innocent masses just to try and prevent one of the numerous loopholes a dedicated PG could jump through.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:27 am

Dorn wrote:If a fully armoured tank who has power build (because thats what it is really) to achieve what is being identified above (ie rogue1/ftrx) and this tank tries to disarm a trap regardless of skill....

The DM should set the trap off on him and say 'wearing gauntlets means you cant take 20' or something....after the trap goes off.

Armour gives a penalty to disarm traps and I don't think you can take 20 on disarm traps in NWN2.

dergon darkhelm · Post by **dergon darkhelm** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:26 pm

NickD wrote:
Armour gives a penalty to disarm traps

Masterwork chainshirt ftw!

Dorn · Post by **Dorn** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:58 am

Hey Mag, read what i said dude!!

I said if it's used to enhance RP then go for it!

I'm saying that if it offers an opportunity for an exploit we should trust our DMs to act appropraitely and smack the exploiter....rather than just banning it wholesale.

And do't worry, i'll never Dm you mate:) I dont have the skill/knack.

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:51 am

It does bring up a good point though, which is that there seems to be a disconnect in the roleplaying community at large as to what is deemed roleplay-acceptable builds.

Personally, any build is acceptable, as long as it is roleplayed according to the build, and a bio gives the build credibility. I base this on the simple fact the 'real' world is loaded with extremes, so why not roleplay a min/max design? After all, the benefits of a min/max design are in the PG, not the roleplay, and if a player focuses on roleplaying their character, PG doesn't enter into the equation. It's a challenge to roleplay such a character. Are we to limit our roleplay to 'average' character concepts?

That's my take. Any other opinions?

ballonger · Post by **ballonger** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:10 pm

Wearing gauntlets at least should give you the dexterity penalty associated with the particular type of armour worn when disarming traps.

Now, I'm not sure how this is treated in NWN2, but in PnP (which we are trying to mimic here) a multiclass character considers all skills of all classes they have levels in to be class skills. That is how it should be. If it isn't like that in NWN2 it's the game that's wrong since it's not following the 3.5 rules.

Now, the Able Learner feat sounds and looks (from the description in the game manual) a lot like Jack of all Trades. Read up on it and you'll probably spot the similarities.

My take on this: If you have a multiclass character the class skills of all your classes should be considered class skills (no matter what class you decide to gain a level in, as per the 3.5 rules). The feat Able Learner should let you treat even cross-class skills as class skills (with a few exceptions) as per the rules of the Jack of all Trades feat (unless I recall incorrectly).

EDIT: (Forgot the important part of the message.) In what I get from the discussion in this thread the Able Learner feat currently serves to correct the multiclass character's list of class skills. Perhaps it could be fixed to work as the Jack of all Trades, and the multiclass character skill list can be fixed separately.