Warlocks

[Booch]

A few things I find myself wondering about Warlocks in FR are, how are they viewed by other spellcasters? Are they ripping their power from the weave in some way that could be construed as destructive?

In terms of how Warlocks are percieved by the 'general public', I would think because of their Evil and Chaotic tendencies, the answer would probably be 'percieved as a threat'.

I also haven't seen any canon material about warlocks yet.

[AlmightyTDawg]

Does anyone have links to what powers were implemented in NWN and what the effects/powers were, as well as how you implement them in game? For example, at will darkness, invisibility, and dispel magic among others could add a lot of craziness to the mix at reasonably low levels. In general though, warlocks won't really come into their own until roughly 11th level. The ranged-touch instead of normal AC attack ability is becomes much better as level goes up, as many upper level mobs tend to be based on armor or natural AC. It's not specified, and maybe someone can comment on errata, but I interpret the eldritch blast as affecting incorporeals if that's implemented in NWN2.

I think one of the things that'll heavily influence their utility will be the draw ranges and the spatial design of servers. But unlike most classes, the warlock will virtually never be a single-class castle-wrecker until 15th level or so. Where warlocks will make the biggest impact is as the sidekick of a more traditional butt-kicker - when they have someone else distracting the main attention and can work freely, they're great. With a mage or cleric in a team, particularly ones able to craft wands or scrolls (or past 12th level, the ability to make their own), basically by mid-level their Take 10 on UMD will make them phenomenally versatile as a "backup" spellcaster. If subjected to up-close-and-personal, they're basically like bards. Most warlocks will probably be based on DEX (for ranged attack and AC), CON (for HP), and CHA (invocation DCs and strong class skills like Bluff/Use Magic), which makes melee combat weak (outside of maybe Weapon Finesse, which itself is weak without SA damage).

In terms of canon, I still believe the abilities of the warlock kick the butt of Spellfire (no need to charge, infinite reuse) and are pretty much by default disallowed in FR, but I don't doubt that WotC will merge them and make them perfectly legit if they haven't already. The BBBM theory. So I think that one's kind of weak.

What really influences how appropriate they are is what abilities were implemented, and how they're implemented. I don't doubt that warlocks will largely be underpowered for the way that a combat-heavy SP campaign is implemented, at least until they gain the "cone" or "blast" shapes. But against low enemy concentrations and single opponents that are more typical of ALFA builds, they have the capacity to be downright obscene.

[Stormseeker]

Hmm cant find the book but there was a fr reader that had a tiefling fighter/warlock as the main character. His warlock side was weak. Been a couple of years atleast.

[fade]

Compared to a PHB/DMG Wizard 20, a full splat book warlock might just -barely- equal that power, and most of that would be from items casting spells from those splat books that the PHB/DMG Wizard wouldn't have access too.

I don't think you have to worry about a full splat book level 20 warlock-ish build on NWN 2.

[witch]

Currently a level 9 warlock

what i notice is

at that level scrolls become useful (In alfa though tons of scrolls are not readily available due to money)

is a good support class for a fighter or such, but then again a rogue would be about as useful.

the incarnations a warlock can cast are nice but you can only pick a few
which makes it not powerful. because you have to chose.

In PnP the warlock is more powerful then in NWN, single spellcasters are seriously more powerful
SO wouldnt worry there, if the warlock gets powerful after level 11, well i think most classes are after level 11 (clerics mages level 6 spells blow a warlock sky high in combat)

I tend to agree with mik (yes its possible it seems) that the coolest part is the name and the flavor and dont see them as something very odd in FR.
bout as odd as sorcerers

[Fionn]

I still say we ban both Sorcs & Warlocks. No way for a proper spoonbender to behave!

[Mikayla]

Fionn:

I still say we ban both Sorcs & Warlocks. No way for a proper spoonbender to behave!

Can we have Jedi and Sith then?!? My KOTOR 2 level 13 jedi person has like 200+ hit points, strikes about 20 times a round with a +19 attack bonus and does, I dunno, 10-30 hp of damage a swing, assuming she does not crit (which she does like, 33% of the time). One jedi/sith from KOTOR at mid-high level would pretty much wax all of ALFA...its ridiculous..but its fun!

So, anyway, since we are going into NWN2 can I have my half-drow, half-demon, vampire, dual-wielding Sith now?

[AcadiusLost]

So, anyway, since we are going into NWN2 can I have my half-drow, half-demon, vampire, dual-wielding Sith now?

You can only dual-weild Sith if you take the monkey grip feat.

Back on topic, it seems the balance of opinions on Warlocks is that they are not obscenely unbalanced compared to the other classes (though with ALFA's resting cycles, I suspect they would gain significant ground). I'm still thinking, though, that had Obsidian not included them in the base game, no one would be arguing to add them- or if someone suggested them, it would get shot down by people saying there isn't really a canon basis for them in FR. Do folks disagree with this assesment? I know, within bounds, we're trying to give folks plenty of options of subraces and classes to make unique and distinctive PCs, I'm just not sure I see the value in adding Warlocks to ALFA. We've already got 2 limited-spell-choice spontaneous casting classes (sorc and bard), really. To me it seeks akin to adding a WoW class to ALFA, just because it's cool- and it's somehow OK because it's not unbalanced compared to our other classes.

Unless WotC has been cooking up some kooky explanation for why suddenly Warlocks are cropping up all over the realms, just in time for christmas? (new sourcebook to follow, collect the whole set)

[Mikayla]

Acad:

I'm still thinking, though, that had Obsidian not included them in the base game, no one would be arguing to add them- or if someone suggested them, it would get shot down by people saying there isn't really a canon basis for them in FR. Do folks disagree with this assesment?

I think no one would argue for the inclusion of Warlocks because the PnP version of the Warlock is so overpowered. NWN2 does not implement the PnP version, thankfully, so the Warlock class is not the uber-class it is in PnP. As for why this "kooky" class is suddenly popping up all over the place, well, this is nothing new - the same thing happened when we switched from 2ed D&D to 3ed D&D and suddenly had "Sorcerors."

Anyway, as Player Admin, I am certainly not going to be subtracting available classes from our list. If a class is truly out of balance (which Warlock does not appear to be) then we can work on it to balance it. But as NWN2/WotC/Obsidian decided to include the class, I am perfectly happy to keep it in.

[Booch]

For what my vote counts for (read - nothing, huge n00b, etc.) I think the Warlock should stay if for no other reason then that taking it out would probably take some effort to alter the character creation panels of NWN2 (again, I'm new so I don't know if this is truly a great effort) or at the very least making sure it's documented that they don't exist.
As for roleplaying, I think there is a great opportunity for people to play with the Warlock concept (great uncle Eddy the budding wizard makes a pact with some demon or devil and WHACK, warlock). Or even more fun would be the wizard character that wants power contacting a being from a lower plane and making a pact to take some level in Warlock. Hours of fun to be had.

So I think they should stay... for what my opinion is worth.

[AcadiusLost]

Well, the change would be turning a "1" to a "0" in a 2da file, not exactly brain surgery from a technical viewpoint.

From an ALFA perspective, it wouldn't be /removing/ warlocks, as we've never had them in the past. They would be new to ALFA, so it really is a question of whether they should be added at the switchover to NWN2.

I agree that the RP aspect of contracting with a demonic power to gain warlock abilities could make for compelling story material, but also realize all of that is the pre-history of your 1st level warlock. Off-camera, behind the scenes, your 1st level PC had this amazing story about meeting up with some awsomely powerful abyssal entity, and managed to bargain with it for limitless arcane power...

...and then you enter ALFA at 1 xp, with 300 gp and look for horse droppings to shovel for cash, try to avoid getting one-hit killed by a kobold with a crossbow, etc. Kind of makes for odd/awkward RP- and means there is a good chance your backstory is going to be more compelling that most all of what you'll experience ingame. Maybe it's just me who sees it that way.

[AlmightyTDawg]

In terms of what will happen in ALFA, I think you'll see a couple of possible issues. None of them are necessarily gamebreakers, but there might be some standard or code of behavior associated with warlock's use, much like we do with thinks like Pal1/SorcX and so on. Or alternately, we could play with the invocation implementations, but I think that'll eat into the play balance, particularly given how difficult some invocations will be to implement.

One would be low-level multiclassing because of the at-will abilities depending on how they're implemented. According to NWN2Wiki, a number of the Least Invocations are implemented as 24h durations (permanent according to the manual), and because they're functionally just buffs, there's no reason not to just stay permanently buffed. The ones that come to mind are Dark One's Own Luck (merge with Pal1/SorcX for uber saves), Devil's Sight or Seen the Unseen, Darkness, and most notably Leaps & Bounds. The latter's probably the most dangerous unless we re-code it to the canon effect, as the +4 DEX virtually permanently can be useful to any number of classes. One other possibility is if Hideous Blow is like a once-per-round attack form, or a combat mode like power attack. Having an ability to randomly stack 1d6 to 2d6 untyped damage will be kind of brutal.

The next would be a possible hunting concern, just because unlike mages their powers don't disappear. Particularly at level 6 with the ability to invis-at-will, static mobs could be picked off as long as the warlock has a source of HP and is sneaky about how he operates. I think this one will be eaten up by general hunting rules, because special abilities of the warlock won't avail them of overlarge gains.

The last would be characters who are support to another dominant class, but the same issue would be true with mages or clerics. Warlocks are painful at low level, but become very flexible with good UMD support. As witch notes, they're not a problem compared to high level casters, though a attack/invis/dispel pattern or autohaste would make them annoying as all get out for CvC. Give a warlock a pair of CLW wands, and they can play cat and mouse for a long long long while.

I don't like them for canon reasons, and I'm scared about how gamey they are as soon as they hit 6th level. Is that enough to wipe them out entirely? Probably not. But I think it'd be wise to have a backup plan if they start getting used the worst possible way.

[Mikayla]

Acad:

I agree that the RP aspect of contracting with a demonic power to gain warlock abilities could make for compelling story material, but also realize all of that is the pre-history of your 1st level warlock. Off-camera, behind the scenes, your 1st level PC had this amazing story about meeting up with some awsomely powerful abyssal entity, and managed to bargain with it for limitless arcane power...

...and then you enter ALFA at 1 xp, with 300 gp and look for horse droppings to shovel for cash, try to avoid getting one-hit killed by a kobold with a crossbow, etc. Kind of makes for odd/awkward RP- and means there is a good chance your backstory is going to be more compelling that most all of what you'll experience ingame. Maybe it's just me who sees it that way.

The whole "pact" thing is not necessary. Warlocks can get their powers innately, without a "pact." Even if a "Pact" is required, you can liken it to the old tales about witches who sell their soul to the devil in return for their powers. They all have to start somewhere. Why wouldn't a demon or devil give up some witch-craft/warlock powers to an aspiring young evil doer? Anyway, regardless, its not even necessary - warlocks can have their powers without having to make a 'pact' just as sorcerors can have their abilities without actually having to be half-dragons.

[witch]

Probably not. But I think it'd be wise to have a backup plan if they start getting used the worst possible way.

thats players misusing it not the class

and the same goes for other classes i think

[Mikayla]

ATD:

One other possibility is if Hideous Blow is like a once-per-round attack form, or a combat mode like power attack.

Witch can probably answer this better than I as my warlock PC does not have multiple attacks yet. Still, the way its done is to click on the "Hideous Blow" icon in your quick-bar just like you would a spell and then target your enemy like you would a spell. Fionn pointed out that you can use the tab button to quickly stack actions, but so far as I can see, the Hideous Blow functions acts as touch-spell more or less; one use per round regardless of your number of attacks. You hit the Hideous Blow button and your make one-eldritch empowered attack.

Now, at the upper-levels I imagine adding this damage gets pretty good - I have sampled the PnP version. But, in PnP its definitely a one-attack/per round thing, so, even though you are stacking lots of damage, a similar level fighter with a big weapon, high strength, multiple attacks, etc. will do lots of damage too.